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technique or groove

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Suss
woofus
Daveonskins
Ted E. Bear
Admin (Pete)
9 posters

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1technique or groove Empty technique or groove Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:42 am

kenny

kenny

some drummers i know like to display their knowledge of techniques.
Others display their knowledge of rhythms. I think i come in the 2nd category. i want a working knowledge of rhythms to play with rather than an arsenal of sideshow stunts. I think one must have competent technique to get their ideas across. But mostly i need to know what i want to play rather than how to play. the latter will come naturally while the former takes research. that's just how i see it fit my personal needs. That's the area i am interested in; different types of music. the techniques are there to get the proper sound. For drumset what is the first practical "technique" you think of when you hear the word "technique". I just want to understand what people think is 'technique" or techniques. There are lots of techniques to explore. what are the main most obvious you think of when you use the term? Obviously we all want precision and accuracy. How does technique apply to this? I need to understand a little better. can you guys explain this term in practical terms with examples?

http://www.balkanmusic.org

2technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:12 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

Well, though I understand your point I think it's important
to note that EVERYTHING we do REQUIRES technique.

There's a technical approach to everything. It may be good or
bad, but the technical aspect is ever present. In the case of
music, I for one am more interested in players that use their
technical skills to be musical. I really like those that have the
skills to form some of the most intricate and technically based
patterns into a paletable, understandable, musical-groove. ie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PXWAcODA6U

Also, I don't totally agree with your conclusions on rhythm coming
naturally. You either have it or you don't and all the research in
the universe won't help you get it. I know people who shouldn't be
doing what they are doing. I'm sure you know people like this also,
Kenny. They've been playing drums or whatever instrument for years
and it's just not coming together for them. THEY don't realize it but when
you hear them play or when you hear a vocalist who really shouldn't be
at the mic, you just know it. Music is a calling and it's not for everyone
to be a participant on the creative end.

3technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:10 am

Admin (Pete)

Admin (Pete)
Admin

Interesting topic, as always, Kenny.

I am not sure they are mutually exclusive.
It's funny how life creeps into your playing.

When I work with large groups of people,
in a lecture-setting, I have sometimes have
the people look at their watches and take
not the type of watch they are wearing.

Is it analog?

technique or groove Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUMkw--Hn7r1yLIh1yRUyQuIzH70fdBjtGQUWghEIPIB8KVwAksA

...or is it digital?

technique or groove P12986399

This helps me clarify what I have to focus
on, in general - either one generally looking
to strive for the other (people want what
they feel they DON'T have). So, for example:
if they are wearing digital watches, they
generally are very technical players and
vice-versa. I know this will invite a lot of
argument on both sides but I have used
this successfully in the analytic setting.

Anyway, I believe that, along my path
in drums, I started out on one side and
now am on the other (technical to groove).
In addition, my technique has adapted to
this transition, not to mention that my
body has required it (age=52).

In my opinion: the bridge to wisdom is
not just knowledge and it is not just
experience. It is both and because
information is useless without practical
application.

I think it was Billy that made a great
analogy of technique being a language.

There are words that are learned and
then there is the structure that they
are applied in (sentences) and then
there a groups of sentences (para-
graph) and this can go on. I think we
choose this general path and stick to
where we feel we need work. It is
possible to get stuck in an area of
emphasis for any number of reasons.

We all have to learn some words.
Some of us just enunciate them barely
and get excited about using them in
sentences. Others stick on the more
accurate enunciation and try and
accumulate more vocabulary (words).
Others look at the words as concepts
and explore their intrinsic meaning
and application (in action) and then
in combination. An alchemy, if you will.

Technique is enunciation. It will be
very clear or barely clear. Something
will be heard, though.

I believe you need to look for good
technique - the words and a way to
say them that will communicate what
it is you want to say. Maybe too much
technique is too many words without
real organization - like a dictionary.
With good technique, you build but
maybe there is an urgency about
what must be said (remember how
Stevie Wonder played the drums
with that sense of urgency - needing
to get the concept [song] out).

When we groove, we are talking
sentences and their expression and
that demands dynamics and now,
we are really talking.

Well, that is a little something. We
can take this out, I am sure.

Just a few ideas.

Regards,

https://bcwtj.forumotion.com

4technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:41 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

In my opinion: the bridge to wisdom is
not just knowledge and it is not just
experience. It is both and because
information is useless without practical
application.

I hear ya, Papa P. great analogy. And I also
see where it can go at least a step further:

There is a third element through which
we may aquire wisdom: Consequence.

It's through consequence that we come
to realize what we should have applied,
......... Or not!

Another thing that's intriguing about the
two similar situation circmstances are the
actual simarlarities. One can gain knowledge
without gaining wisdom but technique is an
absolute as is knowledge.

Love the observation on the time pieces.
Never thought to look at it that way before. cheers

5technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Admin (Pete)

Admin (Pete)
Admin

When I was really young, a
bass player leaned over and
said to me: "Man, your hands
are incredible but your feet
aren't doing anything."

It shook me up. It took years
and that was to just open the
door. I bloomed REALLY late,
as it concerns the kick. I was
a fool. Better late than never,
though and now, if my feet are
not right, nothing is.

Regards,

https://bcwtj.forumotion.com

6technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:08 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

The part I don't understand is
why you feel you were a "fool"
Pete!!?? scratch

The stuff I learned from Virgil
by way of Peter Corona has
been invaluable to my development.
I wasn't foolish. I didn't realize and
you pointed me there, as you did with
The boa pedal. The foolish part would
have been to ignore the given direction,
wouldn't you say?

7technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:43 pm

Admin (Pete)

Admin (Pete)
Admin

I was speaking more of myself,
when I was the kid and enamored
with primarily hand-technique.

I did not appreciate the simple
wonder of a Purdie or the like.
You know. Again, better late
than never, for me.

Even Vinnie - You know, I did
not give him the real credit he
deserved. He was just a monster
and BACK THEN! I am talking
about the kick, now. Just
astounding facility!

And I can't forget Bonham
and others like him. I was
blind to them, down there
but I saw the light.

Yeah, Virgil has made a major
contribution in this regard. I
know you appreciate him and
I am glad for that.

There have been and are great
kickers. Another real monster
is right here, in Suss. Colossal.

Well, yeah - we can go with this
thread. Can't talk enough about
all the different angles.

study

And Don - you are the player.
You never stop and that is why
you are great. It was not me.
It was Virgil.


Regards,

https://bcwtj.forumotion.com

8technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:16 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

Not just Virgil, Pete. You inspired and influenced me
also with your passion for foot control and with some
of the unreal foot patterns you've played and posted.

The only real regret (and hope that I have to do so one
day) is never hearing any of your work on a real set of
drums.

Your compliment exeeds me. But thank you! Wink

9technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:19 pm

Ted E. Bear

Ted E. Bear



Pete, where exactly does it put me if I told you I use a sundial ??? sunny


I know Don will jump all over this one ! LOL




Peace, TED

http://www.drumminfool.com

10technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:15 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

What can I say Teddy B.? I love your ability to
make a band swing the way you do. Many of
those video clips you've shared of you playing
at a local club in N.Y. I have on my computer.

But I've been knowing you to be an old fart and
rivaling the age of dust for some time now! Very Happy

I think I owe you that for all those mullet jokes!

11technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:37 am

Daveonskins

Daveonskins

Good topic and answers from all-

I think technique is a mindset combined with your personal mechanics that work for your individual expression.
The most Basic form of course is holding the drumsticks in your hand..ie: Fulcrum...after that,, it's up to the individual.

I say mindset is involved because, sometimes I sit down and play my drums, and it's effortless..other times it's very difficult.... I'm using the same ''technique''...but the right relaxation up in my noodle brain also plays a major role. Laughing

Keith Moon, and Dave Weckl... both had great technique...

D.L.

12technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:33 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

I say mindset is involved because, sometimes I sit down and play my drums, and it's effortless..other times it's very difficult.... I'm using the same ''technique''...but the right relaxation up in my noodle brain also plays a major role.

"Mindset" Very good, D.L. I find that I don't worry much about my
technical approach until I start having execution issues, when that
happens, I take it all the way back to square one for that particular
pattern I'm trying to accomplish! study

13technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:21 pm

Suss

Suss

Admin (Pete) wrote:Interesting topic, as always, Kenny.

I am not sure they are mutually exclusive.
It's funny how life creeps into your playing.

When I work with large groups of people,
in a lecture-setting, I have sometimes have
the people look at their watches and take
not the type of watch they are wearing.

Is it analog?

technique or groove Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTUMkw--Hn7r1yLIh1yRUyQuIzH70fdBjtGQUWghEIPIB8KVwAksA

...or is it digital?

Right on point - and I honestly think that most get stumped and give up before ever achieving anything within their view - let alone a world view on societal thing. Is it analog or is it digital? Does anyone even know the difference?

Perfect analogy Pete! Perhaps some might consult their dictionarys to discover what that difference is. The difference between analog and digital is not subtle at all. It's a drastic metamorhosis between feeling and zeros to ones in hexadecimal.

I'm an analog player with music - yet I can morph to digital on a moment's notice - even with a bar or chordal change.

The secret is to LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. If something is lost in the transition, then check yourself and readjust. Apply another technique.

Of course all of what we're speaking about here assumes that the skill is inherent (if not nascent) in the performer. It not, then this subject is purely academic yet to be applied and proven.

technique or groove P12986399

This helps me clarify what I have to focus
on, in general - either one generally looking
to strive for the other (people want what
they feel they DON'T have). So, for example:
if they are wearing digital watches, they
generally are very technical players and
vice-versa. I know this will invite a lot of
argument on both sides but I have used
this successfully in the analytic setting.

Anyway, I believe that, along my path
in drums, I started out on one side and
now am on the other (technical to groove).
In addition, my technique has adapted to
this transition, not to mention that my
body has required it (age=52).

In my opinion: the bridge to wisdom is
not just knowledge and it is not just
experience. It is both and because
information is useless without practical
application.

I think it was Billy that made a great
analogy of technique being a language.

There are words that are learned and
then there is the structure that they
are applied in (sentences) and then
there a groups of sentences (para-
graph) and this can go on. I think we
choose this general path and stick to
where we feel we need work. It is
possible to get stuck in an area of
emphasis for any number of reasons.

We all have to learn some words.
Some of us just enunciate them barely
and get excited about using them in
sentences. Others stick on the more
accurate enunciation and try and
accumulate more vocabulary (words).
Others look at the words as concepts
and explore their intrinsic meaning
and application (in action) and then
in combination. An alchemy, if you will.

Technique is enunciation. It will be
very clear or barely clear. Something
will be heard, though.

I believe you need to look for good
technique - the words and a way to
say them that will communicate what
it is you want to say. Maybe too much
technique is too many words without
real organization - like a dictionary.
With good technique, you build but
maybe there is an urgency about
what must be said (remember how
Stevie Wonder played the drums
with that sense of urgency - needing
to get the concept [song] out).

When we groove, we are talking
sentences and their expression and
that demands dynamics and now,
we are really talking.

Well, that is a little something. We
can take this out, I am sure.

Just a few ideas.

Regards,

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

14technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:27 pm

Suss

Suss

Need more be said!?

Expand your horizons and look at any issue ALL ways. Then, and only then, will the technique become evident when necessary!

Now that IS mutually exclusive based upon the logic. When it comes to music, then just play it within your skill set.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

15technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:08 pm

rarebit



How about technique is the dictionary and groove is the poetry?

16technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:29 pm

kenny

kenny

rarebit wrote:How about technique is the dictionary and groove is the poetry?

Now that puts it into simple terms and makes sense. good job!
technique is the operating manual and the groove is the road map.
the operating manual may contain alternate methods and substitutions.
the road map can have off roads to take different directions and variations.

I like this one peter erskine video where he takes a jazz standard and plays it straight ahead. the 2nd take he takes it less conventionally and frees it up.
The 3rd take he takes it very out and minimalistic. same tune, 3 strikingly different approaches.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

17technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:35 pm

woofus

woofus

http://www.myspace.com/jazzstream23

18technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:03 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

How about technique is the dictionary and groove is the poetry?

Interesting! A dictionary defines the technical meaning and apporach. The poetry
is how artfully and skillfully one can express that meaning and approach in such a
way, without it coming off as coarse, dry and cold as it does in it's technical definition.

19technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:07 pm

woofus

woofus

Good words, all. I'd like to summarize my thoughts: groove is everything, the beginning and the end. It's the music you enjoy. Groove guides us to learn technique necessary to accomplish groove. When you enjoy something, you seek out ways of making it happen. Here's a groove I aspire to this week from a drummer you don't hear about often, but he's on tons of records: Rudy Collins


In contrast, same tune with Steve Gadd's concept, looks like he's having a real rough time, almost painful to watch. Of course, there's groove, but it wouldn't be my choice, though his solo is fantastic and elastic:

http://www.myspace.com/jazzstream23

20technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:38 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

I actually have this DVD. It's from the drummers
and bass players collective, a music school in
N.Y. I believe... Steve eats this kind of stuff for
breakfast, lunch, dinner and then again as a
midnight snack before bedtime.

The absolute groove master with oodles of
tasty chops to boot!

That's why he gets gigs like these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZjV22kZUpA&feature=related

21technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:58 am

Suss

Suss

Hi Guys!

When I look @ the Subject and then sped read through the various comments, its apparent to me that anyway that it's not technique OR groove, but both Technique And Groove: Both, And... not "either, or." That's my approach anyway and I think from what I've read this seems logical as well as musical.

I guess that's why rudiments are to drums like multiplication tables in grammar school are to math. We apply the basics to bring out various expressions; i.e. sometimes we add, other times we subtract; then we divide and muliply... oh yeah - don't forget the powers that be to exponents or roots (squared, cubed, etc.).

LOL!

I liked all of the vids posted here - thanks!

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

22technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:34 pm

rarebit



Another one-liner for you:

Groove makes us move while technique is what we think.

23technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:11 am

Suss

Suss

rarebit wrote:Another one-liner for you:

Groove makes us move while technique is what we think.

Hmmm... I think in concepts; not one liners. With gagets where people read books by the front and back cover these days, or any gadgets like Kindles, etc., I think in concepts as it was from the beginning and ought to be now - musically or otherwise.

Technique only embraces what we "think." Again... the subject matter was "either/or." Embrace "both/AND!"

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

24technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:02 pm

kenny

kenny

Thanks John you make alot of sense. - i guess the term has always posed a problem as it is often used as a broad term. I think it's confused me to think there is one technique rather than techniques. like french grip and german are 2 techniques to strke the drum. I needed to clarify it better rather than just say "technique' when there are many technique (s) and infinite possibilities.

A technique is a procedure used to accomplish a specific activity or task:
Technology, the study of or a collection of techniques.
Skill, the ability to perform a task

I think when i started playing drums i was playing hard rock and the techniques I used were limited and primitive compared to what i now utilize behind the drums. Just the use of dynamics is using all kinds of techniques.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

25technique or groove Empty Re: technique or groove Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:30 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

Again, technique is a GIVEN, either conscious or unconscious.
Whatever it is you do, technique is going to be a factor. That
goes for playing the drums right across to chewing gum.

Then there is the technique that is pusposely developed and
applied for a specific reason. This is the conscious technique
that I'm talking about, which will usually make the end result
easier to accomplish and make us more effiecient players
applicably speaking.

That certainly doesn't mean that you can GROOVE as I for one
believes that this is something that comes from within. You
either have it or you don't. But if you CAN groove, then good,
purposeful technique will only make it easier to express physically.

But technique is prevalent, absolute, whether you think about it,
work to hone it's advantages for more skillful application or not.

There's no such thing as "either or."

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