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V-drums still evolving

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1 V-drums still evolving on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:59 pm

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2 Re: V-drums still evolving on Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:45 am

I still hear that machine gun sound on single stroke rolls. I have a TD20 w/exp. and with all the bells and whistles, if you play fast rolls you get the monolithic machine gun sound. Until someone comes up with a way to eliminate that, edrums will always take a back seat to acoustics, despite what electronics can offer.

I know there is a Euro company that have developed pads with varying sensitivity over the entire playing surface to try and capture more realism. Big bucks, though. Roland is expensive enough.

I didn't hear anything on the video that really explained major differences between the 20 and 30.

I'll stick with my TrapKat. More bang for the buck. Of course, it's just a controller, but the new model has Kurzweil sounds in it.

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3 Re: V-drums still evolving on Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:10 pm

I'm not a big proponent of using e-drums for actual gigging as I am for using them as a practice tool.
I like the aspect of being able to put head sets on and playing at what ever volume you prefer.
The motion you go through is the same as an acoustic set and you recieve the same benefits as practicing with an acoustic set but without the loudness of acoustic drums.
I also like being able to play Cd's along with the electronic drums and being able to adjust the volume of both the music and the drums so that one is not over powering the other.

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4 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:27 am

Oh yeah, definitely a great practice tool. I've only played mesh heads in a music store. Different feel. Same with hard rubber pads, for sure. The TrapKat has neoprene pads, something inbetween for feel, but even there switching back to acoustics takes a while to get used too, especially the difference between covering eight toms in three feet versus nine feet on the acoustics.

One of the reasons I got the TK was the small footprint and total volume control. But the machine gunning really is a let down. Plus the cymbal options are limited. I'm told software offers more than modules do. But that's more money for a laptop and all.

I have a friend who lives in an apartment and hasn't been able to play drums for quite some time. He got an edrum setup and now he can play whenever he wants to and not bother the neighbors.

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5 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:15 am

Woody wrote:


No Negatives


Of course they all got paid.


All I want is the full picture.

I bet Billy Cobham could find a error with them.


___________________________________________________________

Outtasight
Colin.

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6 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:19 pm

I personally have never been a fan of elecrtonic drum sets, although I did use a V Drum pad and an alesis DM5 for a short time on the left side of my drums for effects, like hand claps, - (think Gary Numan ''Cars'') etc..

I don't like the feel of them to use as a complete set, and the machine gun sound of the snares--plus just the sizes of the drums make me feel like I'm on a toy. The plastic cymbals are rediculous period.

Live you are subjected to whatever P.A. the venue has, and also whatever inadequate soundman your dealing with.
So for me--they are a thumbs down.

If I HAD to use them--I would
1- turn down the gig
2- use these insted of V pads- http://www.pearldrum.com/Products/Electronic-Drums/ePro-Live.aspx

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7 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:00 pm

Daveonskins wrote:I personally have never been a fan of elecrtonic drum sets, although I did use a V Drum pad and an alesis DM5 for a short time on the left side of my drums for effects, like hand claps, - (think Gary Numan ''Cars'') etc..

I don't like the feel of them to use as a complete set, and the machine gun sound of the snares--plus just the sizes of the drums make me feel like I'm on a toy. The plastic cymbals are rediculous period.

Live you are subjected to whatever P.A. the venue has, and also whatever inadequate soundman your dealing with.
So for me--they are a thumbs down.

If I HAD to use them--I would
1- turn down the gig
2- use these insted of V pads- http://www.pearldrum.com/Products/Electronic-Drums/ePro-Live.aspx




Yes I shudder Whenever I see JR John Robinson selling gear.


He is a Top Drummer can hold a beat like Ed Greene or James Gadson
Even played with Billy Cobham on the Quincy Jones BluRay,

But JR would never say a Negative
due to the Money or Deal he is paid for that clip

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Colin.

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8 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:27 pm

D.L..,

I must admit that I've always wanted to try
them in a live performance situation just out
of curiosity. For me, the cost is too hight to
buy a set of v-drums for the sake of practice
alone. And in performance I'd want my own
sound reinforcement setup that I myself could
control.... Another arm and a leg.

So the big thing for me is they're just not
ecomically worth spending the money on.
And then there's tweeking them to get the
right balance of sound with the rest of the
band. Sounds like a lot of trouble.

So when I weigh these factors against the
cost ($6,000), it's a big ABSOLUTELY NOT!

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9 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:36 pm

D. Slam wrote:D.L..,

I must admit that I've always wanted to try
them in a live performance situation just out
of curiosity. For me, the cost is too hight to
buy a set of v-drums for the sake of practice
alone. And in performance I'd want my own
sound reinforcement setup that I myself could
control.... Another arm and a leg.

So the big thing for me is they're just not
ecomically worth spending the money on.
And then there's tweeking them to get the
right balance of sound with the rest of the
band. Sounds like a lot of trouble.

So when I weigh these factors against the
cost ($6,000), it's a big ABSOLUTELY NOT!




One Way Hire Them
get the Gig to fund it.


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Colin.

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10 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Agreed Colin and D Slam-- Too much trouble entirely. No

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11 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:47 pm

Hit a drum once and before it finishes resonating hit the drum again. That second hit is going to sound different than the first. Why? The drum is already resonating and its acoustics change as a result. I think that's why snare rolls sound so cheesy. This is compounded by many other factors.

Real drums have a way of interacting with one another. Such as the subtle response the snares make when you hit the bass drum, or the resonance the toms give off in respect to the rest of the kit when played. Electronics just can't do this stuff.

On top of that there's a billion ways of playing drums and cymbals from stick angle to tip choice, grip, pressure, on and on that electronics just don't do right.

If you want an electronic drum sound these would be an excellent choice... because they sound like electronic drums.




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12 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:04 pm

What e-drums lack is presence, like everyone says.
Your sound is like a guitar, amplified and coming out a speaker.
In order to get a good sound you must be able to afford a good sound system, like Don said.
Once that is complete you must rehearse with your band with the e-drums because they sound different that a-drums to the other musicians.
Again, the issue of the drums presence.
Once you overcome that, you can open yourself up to different sounding kits all built into one. While you are playing your acoustic kit with one sound that is the same ALL the time an electronic kit can sound like multiple different kits at the turn of a knob.
You say, "Yeah, it's a hassle lugging all the equipment around", but you have to lug around amps & P.A. systems, too. Not to mention your acoustic kit. It will probably take some more time to set up an e-kit but just get to the gig a little earlier. Besides, isn't the drummer always the first one to the gig, anyways?
If you tune your e-drums properly you shouldn't have an issue with the snare "machine gunning". I never have and I've had my V-Sessions for 10 years, now. Maybe on some of the less expensive kits you might have that problem but, as the old adage goes, you get what you pay for.
The way I look at it. I have another tool in my arsenal of percussion that is at my hands and ready to use for my benefit.

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13 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:30 pm

I've gone in to music stores and played the top of the line kits through cans. The snares just don't sound right. I wouldn't call it machine gunning. I'd call it lacking the life and character that a real drum has. Especially rimshots. Not to mention cymbals which to me sound so one dimensional it's almost painful that they even tried to recreate it.

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14 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:48 pm

Hey, Woody, I actually have an e-drum setup, kinda, sorta.
I have the hexagon shaped Roland TD-6 brain, 1 Dauz pad,
2 Yamaha pads and a Kat mini kick double trigger bass drum
pad.

They work really well. I've only used them in a colaborative
effort with my A drums, like D.L. has done.

I plan on getting those going again in the same capacity.

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15 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:02 pm

Granted, the e-drums aren't for everyone. Some people will like them and some people won't.
I find them invaluable as a practice tool. Built in metronome, ability to play along with CD's while you control the level for the drums & cd player independently.
Not to mention being able to loop drums sounds with the abilty to play over them.
I own the V-Session with the TD-10 module expanded. Mesh heads, etc.... top of the line when I bought them in 2002.
I'm not saying that they will replace an acoustic kit, I'm just saying that they are a different instrument related to percussion that can augment and expand a drummers sound when applied tastefully.
I think, and this is only my personal opinion, that e-drums make practice more fun and will still evolve into a force to be reckoned with in the not too distant future.

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16 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:36 pm

Woody,

I like e-drums but in all truthfulness for me,
I don't find them more fun. I think real drums
are much more fun than e-drums because of the
higher challenge that I believe it takes to play
a real kit. On real drums there's a much more
involved effort in pulling the sound out of them.
The emotion is created one drum, one hit at a time
through technique, dynamics and tone. With e-drums,
the sound is ready made for all intensive purposes.

For me, playing them is sort of an illusion. The
pre- processed sounds make everything sound
good.... You don't have to work as hard or get
as emotionally involved. Accidently strike the rim,
no problem, it simply comes out as another processed
sound.

They're quite fun to play. But the truth is they will
never become anything more than a cool novelty
as a complete, stand alone, drum kit. I mean look
what's happened thus far. These things have been
around a very long time now and have not even
scratched the surface of taking the drum industry
by e-storm.

No matter how advanced they become The reality is
that e-drums are just imitators and as long as a-drums
are around e-drums will be nothing more than that and
will always take a back seat to the real deal....

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17 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:48 pm

I think you're missing the point, Don.
E-drums can do things that regular drums can't.
They weren't created to replace acoustic drums. They are an instrument in their own right. You keep comparing them to acoustic drums and that is where you're missing the point. They aren't acoustic drums and shouldn't be compared to acoustic drums.
That is a common misnomer that a lot of people make.
Comparing them to acoustic drums. Crying or Very sad

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18 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:18 pm

Hi, Woodman,

I agree with you that they allot more in one sense.
But then there's that ol' rubber meets the road thing.
At a minimum investment of $6000.00 I have to think
about the return that they're going to yield. I can't
afford to pay that kind of money simply for drumming
enjoyment. So when it comes down to me putting out
that kind cash for what I assume is supposed to be a
drumming instrument, electronic or otherwise, Yes, I
have no choice but to think of them along those lines.

But as far as comparing, In reality you can compare a
drum set to a saxophone it's just that you're going to
discover different results. Results don't have to be
the same for you to compare something. And e-drums
and a-drums both have the same basic function. I can't
understand why you feel they can't be compared....?

Consider what you yourself wrote:

The motion you go through is the same as an acoustic set and you recieve the same benefits as practicing with an acoustic set but without the loudness of acoustic drums.

That's a pretty good comparison if you ask me.

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19 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:28 pm

The point I was trying to make is that you have the same benefits of playing an electronic kit as you would an acoustic kit, Don.
I can easily switch back and forth from either one without any adverse effects. To me, anyways.
Of course you can compare anything to something else. The point you guys keep making is that it'll never replace an acoustic kit. And it won't!!!
It wasn't designed to replace an acoustic drum set. It is another instrument in its own right.
You're right. $6,000 is a lot of money. That's why I made monthly payments to buy mine. It doesn't quite hurt so bad when you pay a little at a time. Just like making a car payment.

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20 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:43 pm

Woodman,

I hear you and what you say makes sense.
And like I said, I would personally like to
use them in a live situation, as I feel I could
make them work. I just feel the cost would
out weigh the benefits to do that because
it would probably cost me another $1,200 to
$2,000.00 to get the on stage sound to make
them feasible for everyone. Cool if, 1. you
have money to burn, 2. a sweet Roland endorse-
ment deal.... Needless to say I have niether.
So from my point of view I have to look at them
through the same microscope.

Also when you bought your kit, I think they were
running about $3,800.00 if memory serves me right.
But $6,000.00 is just WAY out of the ball park for me.

Even with payments.

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21 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:48 pm

Yeah, they were. But I bought the PM-3 monitor system and the TDA-700 amplifier and cases for them so when all was said and done I have almost that much invested in them.

I hear what you're saying, Don.
They are expensive.

Mostly the point I was trying to make is that they are fun to play and a lot more involved than most people think.

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22 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:20 pm

Woody,

If they didn't cost so much today, I'd probably
have a set. The practice tools that you gain from
this is priceless.... Well, almost...

You did well to get what you got at the price you
got it.

And what I should mention is one of the major areas
that I compare them with a-drums are their accessibility
You don't have to worry about how the sound is going
to mesh with real drums. Getting it done is not as involved
as e-drums.

And IMHO, I just don't see anything out there as good as
the v-drums when it comes to electronics. The mesh heads
are noticeably different from real heads but I like them and
find that the transistion from one to the other isn't and issue
with me... Another thing too, I like technology when it
comes to cars, instruments and stereo equipment. cheers

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23 Re: V-drums still evolving on Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:12 pm

Where edrums shine is like Woody says, changing sets with a knob. Plus all the percussion. Having it all with acoustic percussion would cost a kings ransom. Plus all the chromatic instruments. The TrapKat has 24 pads. That's two octaves of melodies. Not the same as a typical 6 pc, but even there simple melodies can be played.

I do hear machine gunning in the video. It has to happen simply because the sounds are single reference. Played fast they are exactly the same. There's no variation like with acoustics. So, it comes out sounding like a machine gun. Snares, toms, even cymbal rolls on some modules.

$6k for the Rolands is crazy to me. Yamahas are so much less, the module has recording and sampling capacity, plus full songs to play to for practicing, not the short repeating phrases on the Roland.

Like every other technology they will continue to work out the problems. Of course, by then technology will provide air drums with sticks played through an invisible sound field. Actually, that already exists, though its pretty far from being viable.

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24 Re: V-drums still evolving on Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:38 pm

Woody,

Have you ever tried replacing the mesh heads
with regular ones?

Regards,


P


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To the father of us, all - Billy Cobham!
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25 Re: V-drums still evolving on Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:17 pm

No, I haven't needed to, Pete.
I've had my V-drums for 14 years now and I haven't had to change anything about them.
They still work like the first day I bought them.

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