BC's

Billy's Substitute WTJ Forum


You are not connected. Please login or register

Has It All Been Reached?

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 1 of 2]

1 Has It All Been Reached? on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:41 am

The last two or three decades have produced a number of quantum leaps in drumming. Have the abilities of human beings been maxed out?

I do not believe any drummer will be able to play with any more independence, co-ordination, speed, endurance, and technique than is being displayed today. Perhaps human brains can be taught to greater advancement, but it is dubious in my mind. I believe the human brain and body has been maxed out when it comes to drum set artistry. If not, this is moot. If so, then where does it go from here?

I believe athletes have reached the limits of these same aspects. So now they are using enhancement drugs, if they can get away with it.

Musicians have been into drugs for a hundred years. It has generally ruined those who partake beyond human capacity to filter bad effects. Will drummers seek enhancement drugs to go farther with speeds and endurance, etc? Time will tell.

I once saw a film of a young man writing with all four limbs in four different languages, at the same time. Needless to say the human mind and body are capable of incredible things. Can such things be translated into the physical/mental world of drumming?

We'll see where the young lions go from here.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

2 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:25 am

I do not believe any drummer will be able to play with any more independence, co-ordination, speed, endurance, and technique than is being displayed today. Perhaps human brains can be taught to greater advancement, but it is dubious in my mind. I believe the human brain and body has been maxed out when it comes to drum set artistry.

What I find ironic about this is the same kind of
statements were likely made 2 or 3 decades ago.

It'll only escalate from here. I don't know how
much of it we'll see in our lifetime, but these
abilities are nowhere near maxed out. Some
crazy things are coming and I hope I'm around
to witness some of it.

View user profile

3 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:05 am

So you believe humans can move their limbs and hands and feet faster than what is being accomplished today? I don't. The bar got raised with video and DVDs and youtube. More people can see what is being done. More people will rise to that level. Whether that level can be increased I question.

I don't recall thinking this 40 years ago. I believe it now by simple observation and kinesiology.

We'll see. Like I said, more human brain concentration will lead to independence advancement, perhaps. I suppose if drummers want to play four totally different time signatures at the same time they will get there. I tend to find the independence thing limiting for hand expression. I watch the masters of this and hear holes because of the use of one hand. I guess it can be used to some degree in certain types of music.

There will always be Everest climbers. I just believe the physical limitations of natural human anatomy have been reached.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

4 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:09 pm

What is infinite are the possibilities of composition. The way bebop took something complicated enough and made it more complicated and faster.
There is no end to what can be conceived. The way progressive rock or even classical music took a simpler form and stretched it. It's the composition that takes the hard work.
With 12 notes to work with, the trick is to make that interesting. That's what's important for satisfying music. It's knowing when and where to apply what we know.
It's like a metaphor for the way we live our lives.

View user profile http://www.balkanmusic.org

5 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:20 pm

I did a search on just how many different combinations of notes can be done with seven for one key sig. I forget the number one guy came up with. Astronomical. Quintillions or something. That's figuring in everything from the seven notes, to repetition of notes, rests, everything. Pretty incredible. That's just western scales, too.

One of the things I find disturbing though is the darkness rock has lowered into. I mean really dark (I would have to say, based on my world view), satanic sounding stuff. It just keeps getting darker, angrier, depraved. We get requests from record companies asking to reissue our album. We have said No based on various reasons, but one of the reasons, for me, is what the band is lumped in with now. Just totally overt satanic metal bands with the most awful sound. It's like entering a nightmare being awake. Literally skin crawling stuff.

I don't know how cycles work. Obviously there's a lot of retro music out there, and we are dealing with just one century and looking back on redoing things in that time frame. Have people run out of ideas?

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

6 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:48 pm

It is disturbing. That's the point. throw you off your center. Just remember it's cookie monster vocals that's all. I guess it's all balance/ for as much good there will be that much bad. i don't get the whole goth/metal thing. It's weird.

Don't let stupid things discourage you. Then they win.

View user profile http://www.balkanmusic.org

7 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:49 pm

Maybe YOU didn't think that 40 years ago, Asaph....
But there are others among you! 40 years ago I
couldn't begin to imagine what's being played today
let alone what the possibilities are in the future.

It's always been that way. People have said records
wouldn't be broken but they are and it's not just because
of drug enhancement. There are proven, scientific
physical technologies, supplements and equipment
discoveries and break throughs that allow mankind
to continue to excel. Why should I think it's reached
it's peak simply because I can't see or imagine past
my own comprehension? I might not do it but somone
will.... And others will be sure to follow.

As I live and play, I have continued to get better....
Faster, more independent with increased technical
abilities. It's been non stop. I imagine it'll be that
way till either my body and mind gets too old, or I
die, which ever comes first.

Again, I don't know what I will see in my lifetime, but
if the Lord don't come and the creek don't rise, some
amazing things are on the way.... That's what I believe
anyhoo.

View user profile

8 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:19 pm

When did drumming and music become about breaking records?
Who has a personal style anymore? give people a heart attack that's what i want yeah. Now I looked at marco minnemin and i think he is very musical with all his chops keeping a raw edge on things that keeps it real. And the compositions were cool. He wins all these competitions but also is into music. You don't want to get so wrapped up in technical aspects and forget about the creative musical side. The purpose of it all. A friend of mine stated the other day if music helps people to be kind and love one another then that is good music and if it makes them want the opposite then that's bad music. I think this indulgence in speed is plain ludicrous. They want to get their dopamine levels up more and more just like a junkie who needs his fix and it gets harder and harder to fulfill. Try getting some musical culture.
I love fast music and i get to play with some of the greatest living musicians in that area. But they also have a lifetime of musical culture to go with it. they don't win competitions for speed but because they have a vast knowledge of music, technique but most importantly improvisational skill and know how to apply it effectively.

View user profile http://www.balkanmusic.org

9 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:03 am

When did drumming and music become about breaking records?

Kenny,

I used that analogy referring to Asaph's statement below
in mentioning athletes. Read the entire thread before
commenting. That way the statements you make will be
in context by way of having actual, factual knowledge
of what it is you're commenting on. The statement I made
referred to the physical advancement of man in all walks of
life and not JUST drumming.

I believe athletes have reached the limits of these same aspects. So now they are using enhancement drugs, if they can get away with it.

But in answer to your question since you brought it up:

http://worldsfastestdrummer.com/

View user profile

10 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:01 am

A Dixon single bass drum pedal? Did I miss something in the pedal world recently? That is a prize?

I'm actually surprised they have not tried to capitalize on this before. Move out beyond the actual WFD event.

The whole WFD-thing is ... sport, not music, of course, and it has an effect on younger players wanting more speed than developing real musicality and personal voice.

Just the way the world has gone - fast food, fast service, faster cars, faster PC's, speed, speed, speed. And drummers have always generally been impressed with fast movement on the instrument since the beginning of trap set playing. Probably had speed competitions amongst snare players in the military since modern drums were invented. Even aboriginal drummers get into speed with hand drums. Tabla, dhoumbek. Fast fingers. Faster, faster, faster >>>>>>

I understand people are now getting sick in movie theaters with fast camera angle changes in 3-D.

I watched a Cindy Blackmon solo yesterday. The camera work/editing was horrendous. Made the solo totally insignificant to the producer's idiotic speed-shot whims.

Speed is king. Sad.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

11 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:13 am

I have always heard, for me anyway, that Minnemann is a little more fluid in his playing than the other time choppers. Depends on the music, too. I don't care for any of the music these guys get into. I do like some of the new Holdsworth Trio stuff, though.

There was a kid I saw on youtube years back. He was playing so fast comments came in droves that the films were sped up. So, he gets a gong (college student in rehearsal hall I guess) and places it behind him. He pushes the gong and it rocks back and forth and he takes off. The gong is slowing down as he is playing faster. I do not believe I have seen anyone play that fast. Literally blurring speed. I do not see human limbs gaining capability, with any kind of exercises, nutrients, whatever, of playing faster than today. Anatomy does have its limitations. Even in sports. They say a record has been 'crushed' when someone beats it by a couple tenths of a second. Winners are determined by hundredths of a second. That isn't anything physically noticeable. It's more about cameras and clocks. With drumming I do believe the speed has been maxed out. As far as coordination and chopping up time signatures ... it all begins to sound like a million notes not making any music. I hate to envision the "music" it will all go along with.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

12 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:06 pm

When time is a factor in a sport like track and field (sprinting)
a tenth of a second is huge and it's easily visually noticed.

Usain Bolt crushed his own world record in Beijing by .03 with
a 9.69 and showboating 80m before he even crossed the finish
line. Then he came back the four years later and destryed that
record with a 9.58 in London.

I think the one thing you're not considering here is evolution.
I'm not talking about the theoretic process that's proposed by
evolutionists but the evolutionary process by design and
application. As we apply ourselves there are traits that are built
into each of us that's triggered and causes us to exel to a point
that is at least closer to the goal we disire to achieve. Lay in the
sun, you're going to get darker. Lift weights, you're going to gain
muscle size.

I believe those traits are passed on to our children and our
children's children. Thus, they have what we had to build more
readily and naturally and when they apply themselves, the results
are a step beyond ours.

It doesn't matter that it doesn't happen in leaps and bounds.
The point is that it's steadily moving forward. And this is precisely
what has been happening throughout the physical history of mankind.

The San Andreas Fault which runs almost the entire length of
California moves only a couple of inches a year. But take a
helicopter ride over it and look at the result and it's magnificants.

Time, all it takes is time. And it is an absolute, scientific fact that
man has steadily advanced and excelled physically over time.

So again, if the Lord don't come and the creek don't rise..........

View user profile

13 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:00 pm

Asaph wrote:The last two or three decades have produced a number of quantum leaps in drumming. Have the abilities of human beings been maxed out?



I once saw a film of a young man writing with all four limbs in four different languages, at the same time. Needless to say the human mind and body are capable of incredible things. Can such things be translated into the physical/mental world of drumming?



I think people will more and more be able to integrate interesting musical concepts in their playing with a higher awareness of the vast diversity of musical styles worldwide. Whether the advent of global media etc...is of help I'd say yes. But mostly people can learn at an accelerated rate nowadays with so much more to choose from. For folks with severely low imagination levels and lack of artistry there are drumming speed competitions. let's play some music okay i'll grab the drum-o-meter and see how good it is. affraid

View user profile http://www.balkanmusic.org

14 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:20 pm

A tenth of a second is only visible when someone is running or swimming slower. But watching someone by themselves, it is not visible.

Actually, genetic code is decided in such a way that a parent working out and building muscle which is not naturally inherent, cannot pass that on to the next generation. If every generation of men in a line worked out and looked like Steve Reeves (aging myself, so we'll say Jay Cutler) unless a mutation takes place which creates extra large muscles in the DNA, it is not passed on, and mutations generally lose information, not gain any.

Same for drummers. Every generation of Virgil Donati's have to develop their own speed on top of what genetics they have. Whatever is developed cannot be passed on.

I know the brain, the mind can be developed, but again that is not based on generational genetic enhancement. Sometimes savants are born, and no one understands why.

It is interesting, Don, you bring out the second coming of the Lord because that enters my thoughts on this. Mankind has lost a tremendous amount since the fall. They lived for centuries, had greater stature and little by little it has all wasted away. If things seem to increase in the human sphere it is more man's ability to fight disease and short life span as a result. It has helped some lines to reach a greater potential. I believe Christ is returning soon enough. Kind of leads me to believe man has reached his limits.

Drummers are messing around with time and independence, but I don't see anybody playing faster than Buddy or Billy in their prime. They both played in whirlwind blurs. Five decades has not changed that. Has Dennis, or any of the newer players increased on that? If they have, it's by the tenths of a second ratio. Nothing major. I don't follow baseball anymore and I am sure there are flamethrowers out there, but the name Bob Feller still carries a whole lot of respect.

I see drummers playing around with time signatures more, and developing greater four limb independence, maybe.

Time will tell.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

15 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:28 pm

Actually, genetic code is decided in such a way that a parent working out and building muscle which is not naturally inherent, cannot pass that on to the next generation.

Everyone has the natural inherent code to build muscle, Asaph.
Not everyone is going to or can be a champion body builder or
build muscle as fast or as easy as some others may, but the code
of building larger muscle is there nonetheless.

I like what you said to Kenny concerning the existence of God:
When all the data is placed on the table what are we left to conclude?
The proof is in the pudding that has been made and continues to be made.
Speaking from a physical point of view, man has continued to excel in this
area.

It's more than obvious.

I believe Christ is returning soon enough. Kind of leads me to believe man has reached his limits.


Agreed... Hence the return of the Lord and the rising of the creek.

View user profile

16 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:45 am

I believe it all cycles back to what I posted recently. The value of simply playing the music, back to basics and the organics of it all. All of what you are talking about is like a very long journey to excel the human condition beyond it's limitations, only to later find that the true essence of music is to return home and play it for what it is and to groove doing it. Leaving aside all human pride to re-establish and redefine what's always been there from the begining and that is...to groove.

Rac

View user profile http://www.glennracoma.com

17 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:24 am

I know there are drummers who do take that road in many ways. Especially is that the case with players who used really large set-ups and did the big fills and all, and then they scale down and just simply support the music in more basic ways.

I've been surprised there haven't been more "Bozzios" to come along. He may be the only drummer to have ever actually taken drumming to a place so unique few follow. I know there is a guy in Australia that does something like Bozzio does. I forget his name. Perhaps it is just too apparent followers would be imitators. It would be THAT difficult to put your own spin on the one-man-band thing he does. That really says something for his contribution to the art. Many got into ostinato playing, but overall Terry hit the max and few have taken it farther. He just keeps taking it farther himself.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

18 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:21 pm

Don't mean a thing....

View user profile

19 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:41 pm

I believe it all cycles back to what I posted recently. The value of simply playing the music, back to basics and the organics of it all.

Rac is right... But it goes beyond that.

First, the question is what's the music, 4/4 or 11/8
with every other measure being played straight 4
over the bar line followed by a bar of 7?

Then, you must know and realize what it takes to just groove.
Those who can do it understand the emotional mindset
that's behind it. But it still takes a concept, a development
of a given technique along with a certain physical ability. We
all need that to do ANYTHING... But if that's all there is, then
throw away all the voices... Get rid of the toms and the cowbells,
the double kick pedals and the array of diverse sounding cymals.

Nevermind the vocabulary. Set up a snare, kick and hi hat, and just
play the groove. don't even worry about attempting to entice any
kind of spontaneity... Just lay that groove, man and anything beyond
that is overkill... K.I.S.S.

On the other side of the coin it's about having the skills to use
the voices so you CAN execute your desired vocabulary. It goes
without saying that this takes a higher degree of physical and
technical dexterity... The beauty of it is you can have more,
say more and if it's in you, still make it groove... So why not?!

View user profile

20 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:56 pm

Personally, I'll have a large set-up till I breathe my last. It's just the way I hear things.

I remember reading something about a producer telling Jordan all he could have for a session was just what you said - kick, snare, hats. To me that is like telling the pianist he can have 12 keys, or the guitarist, one string. They wanted the music to have the most possible simplicity of drum set palette. Dance music. I'd hate to think that is what it would reduce to. I'd rebel to the bitter end. bounce

I guess you can look at it another way, too. Just what can you come up with on that set-up? Some find that challenging. I find it limiting in the extreme, and boring.

Just what spins the globe, I guess.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

21 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:11 pm

Asaph wrote:Personally, I'll have a large set-up till I breathe my last. It's just the way I hear things.

I remember reading something about a producer telling Jordan all he could have for a session was just what you said - kick, snare, hats. To me that is like telling the pianist he can have 12 keys, or the guitarist, one string. They wanted the music to have the most possible simplicity of drum set palette. Dance music. I'd hate to think that is what it would reduce to. I'd rebel to the bitter end. bounce

I guess you can look at it another way, too. Just what can you come up with on that set-up? Some find that challenging. I find it limiting in the extreme, and boring.

Just what spins the globe, I guess.

Whatever it is one wants or needs to say what one needs to say.
As to what you find limiting and boring, I guess someone forget
to mention that to Jojo Mayer.



View user profile

22 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:15 pm

Well, I'm counting a 4pc, plus extra snare, and five cymbals plus 2 hats. Personally, I find a four piece limiting, though I recorded our forthcoming first CD with one.

My point was the producer told the drummer to pull away everything but the three pieces. Jordan did it, and he did fine for the music, I guess. It isn't music I like. And if drumming whittled down to 3 pcs. I'd quit drumming.

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

23 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:01 pm

I know what you meant, Asaph. I was only giving you a hard time.

Personally, I love the ability some players have to make a tiny set
of drums sound larger than they actually are. Dave Weckl is really
good at this. I love what Jojo does behind a set of drums. His video
"Secret weapons for the modern drummer" is the best instructional
video I've ever seen. Before that it was the Dave Weckl series.

I also liked Jim Chapin's instructional video... Good stuff. I like both
large and small kits because it opens up different approaches for me.
I execute different things between the two and it's something that
happens unconsciously. The setup size is what determines how I
approach the kit and I really like that idea. Keeps me on my toes
for sure.... Nowhere to hide behind a small kit. What you play
better be right! Cool

View user profile

24 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:59 am

There's a video posted on this forum of a Euro guy just playing snare, kick, hats and it is totally cool. I've watched it numerous times. Sometimes I sit at the kit and just play around like that, but you know, sooner or later toms start edging in. bounce

I kind of see it like food. If someone gives me a nice crisp juicy apple to eat, I'll eat it and enjoy it, but I sure do like fruit salad a whole lot more. cheers

View user profile http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

25 Re: Has It All Been Reached? on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:27 pm

kind of depends on the musical situation and other members contribution to the music. I think you should be able to make meaningful statements with a 4 or 5 piece kit. if you're playing more progressive melodic music then more notes are more essential. If you can't make any music work on a 4 piece i don't see more drums helping you. if you can't take an interesting solo on a 4 piece then you're relying too heavily on your instrument rather than your ability.

View user profile http://www.balkanmusic.org

Sponsored content


View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 1 of 2]

Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum