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Where did it all go?...

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1 Where did it all go?... on Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:46 am

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2 Re: Where did it all go?... on Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:02 am

Racman wrote:


Its still with us
Via Jazz Music Education.


I could see Billy Cobham Jazz Band in Tunisia
now Armed Police protect every zone



That  is special


Utter Bliss


__________________________

Outtasight
Colin

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3 Re: Where did it all go?... on Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:33 pm

Thanks Colin I'll check into it.

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4 Re: Where did it all go?... on Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:41 pm

Like most things, it's passed from one generation to the other.
If the next generation decides not to pick up the ball, then it's
simply left to the sands of time. It gets buried and then lost.

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5 Re: Where did it all go?... on Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:14 am

"If the next generation decides not to pick up the ball"
D said
________________________________________________

There's truth there and also as you've noted before on how fusion dissipated into oblivion due to so many factors that caused it to change it's direction. And in most part generations who proceeded it showed no interest or found no value in the history of things, in this case fusion and jazz. In other words, or yours, decides not to pick up the ball.

Question then; Why would you (we) think this generation does not want to pick up the ball of traditional jazz?

Just something I've questioned.

I might also add that during this era jazz appeared to be a cultural connecting point among people groups of contrast, I think.

Thanks,
Rac

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6 Re: Where did it all go?... on Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:16 pm

In my town there is a thriving jazz scene. Young people learn jazz in high school and college now. Amazing players abound. Not sure where you are coming up with your line of scarcity thinking. There is abundant jazz and when was fusion ever really popular? It existed and still exists. As far as making a living at it, that's always been tough unless you have a brand name people know. Why would such a sophisticated style of music be part of mass culture? It isn't because it takes brains to play and listen to and is relegated to that minority. Maybe time to get off the island and check out what's going on in the real world. My 2 cents worth, peace

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7 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:14 am

Question then; Why would you (we) think this generation does not want to pick up the ball of traditional jazz?

Good question, Rac...  And I think much of this
has to do with the state of our values.  just
listen to much of the stuff we're now being inundated
with.  It's garbage, mere push button music!  

I honestly feel that as Values decline, so it will be
for those NOT giving what they did not receive.  

Old saying:  "Garbage in, garbage out."  It's not
even about the music so much as it is being a
"superstar" with these kids. And they'll sing and
play anything it takes to get them there.  The
music is of no consequence when it's about me,
myself and I.

What chance does jazz possibly have when our
post generation adopts such an attitude?  They
see the ball and simply kick it out of their way as
they walk by.

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8 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:31 am

Maybe time to get off the island and check out what's going on in the real world. My 2 cents worth, peace
Kenny
__________________________________

My world is as real as yours but culturally different in many ways. Hawaii has been a state since 1959 and is very much similar to modern cities around the world having it's own style to it. It attracted many great jazz artists from around the globe. And no, we no longer live in grass shacks.

I could go on as to the greats of jazz and fusion that came here in the seventies and into the eighties. Hubert Laws, Miles Davies, Sadao Watanabe with Gerry brown on drums, the Jazz Crusaders, Buddy Rich, Chick Corea, George Benson (owns property with a studio on Maui) and the list goes on. They seemed to realize that Hawaii was a reality for jazz at that time and was going strong. As to a few exceptional locals like Seawind, Noel Okimoto (grad of Berkely School of music) who accomplished cutting his own CD, 'Ohana", and bass player,  who played with Miles during his France tour. Miles picked him up while sitting in a jazz club listening to him perform. These musicians who made it in the jazz arenas tells that Hawaii was no joke in the jazz and fusion world. But like most cities, commercial pop music was always the draw for majority so eventually the market went south.

As far as leaving the islands? I did live in LA and jammed with some fusion unknowns but that was the extent of travel in my early years as a musician. The saying here is that you can take a man out of the islands but you can't take the islands out of the man. So I eventually returned to family and friends. But it was an experience I will always cherish.

My friend Noel Okimoto on brushes. Local boy did well. This guy noted by Miles and no later performed with the great Hubert Laws. Here he is fiddling with.....the brushes. I remember asking him  during his youth years who was his favorite and most influential drummer? He quickly responded, Billy Cobham.Check him on the other video, like the Afro-Cuban patterns. Yes, jazz was noted in Hawaii where one would least expect it.

Aloha!





Gordon Biersh, Honolulu, Hawaii -recent live club concert


A friend (Mr. Reggie Padilla) who I had an opportunity to play with for a benefit But this is him with another band playing a gig in Paris. Again, these are musicians that have been influenced greatly by the jazz greats and perpetuates this art form. Yes, we still have the residue of jazz but not as strong as in the seventies. But I thank God for those who remain to pick up the ball for arts sake and not popularity. Both Noel Okimoto and Reggie Padilla are solid Christians, sharing the love of music. And yes my friend, these are island breed material out in extended parts of the world.

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9 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:13 am

It seems totally unrelated
but I am hoping that we
will see more of this Lady
Gaga thing exploring the
jazz roots.

Not that I listen to her or
know her thing at all but
that she is current and
looking back: I think is
good and perhaps an
example to youngsters.

The truth is that any player
of any instrument, if they
are truly searching, will find
themselves going back at
some time in their careers.

If not, it is their loss.

Regards,


_________________
Pete

To the father of us, all - Billy Cobham!
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10 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:15 am

It depends on what they're searching FOR, Pete.

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11 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:46 pm

Nice Rac, check out my friend Thomas MacKay vibroophonist who just moved to Honolulu. He's a great player says its a happening scene there with many great players.
if you think abundance you will find abundance if you expect scarcity you will find that. peace gotta run

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12 Re: Where did it all go?... on Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:14 pm

if you think abundance you will find abundance if you expect scarcity you will find that.

This just isn't the case....   Jazz exists therefore you can find it
but not necessarily in abundance.  It's like the buffalo, you can
find them if you look. But there is no abundance of them... Not
like it once was.

The clips that Rac put up of Blakey was the way back then.
like it used to be with the buffalo, jazz filled the streets and
the entertainment houses It was jazz or at least some form
of it.  By comparing then and now, jazz has slipped into
obscurity.  It wasn't so specialized and designated as it is today.
It wasn't just about the elite player or the listener.  Back then
it was the norm for folks to step out for a night on the town to
check out some good jazz, regularly.  It's not that way anymore.

And I think this is (at least in part) is what Rac is saying...
Rac correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe YOU'RE the one who needs a broader view outside your
own neck of the woods and into the "real world."

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13 Re: Where did it all go?... on Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:25 am

Why would it stay that way? Why wouldn't times change? There is all kinds of music out there all the time. Why pine for days gone by? The answer is simple pop music and the industry places itself in front of more people. But there is still all kinds of other stuff out there to be heard. Instead of sitting home on faceplant, people could get out and hear live music. But that takes effort. And people have this poverty consciousness that they can't do anything where they need to drop 20 or 40 bucks in a night on music and a couple drinks.



Last edited by kenny on Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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14 Re: Where did it all go?... on Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:10 am

I can feel the heat rising in this
thread.  It is not necessary to
use inflammatory language to
convey our points regarding
history and how times can and
do change from our perspective.

I can and will delete posts and
even the entire thread, if it
continues to move in that
direction, as moderator.

clown


_________________
Pete

To the father of us, all - Billy Cobham!
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15 Re: Where did it all go?... on Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:15 am

D. Slam wrote:It depends on what they're searching FOR, Pete.

The "search" would be for the
greater "dynamic control and
command" over the instrument.

I know that it is easy to stop in
this search and most do but
there are those that continue
to explore strange new life
and new civilizations and to
boldly go where no man has
gone before...

cyclops

...and there are many the greats
that have realized that going
forwards, without going back,
is not going forward at all.

Idea

This has been true for me. I
look at Omar open-handed and
see Billy and smile.

Regards,


_________________
Pete

To the father of us, all - Billy Cobham!
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16 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:52 am

Kenny, take a chill pill!  And another thing.  Leave Jesus
out of this!  No need to start insulting one's faith with
insensitive and outright stupid comments like that.

As far as the music goes no one here needs a musical
history lesson from the likes of you.  Maybe if you took
the time to specialize a little more, what you do behind
the kit just might back up some of your strong (though
ill presented) words.

See, the rest of these fellas here will be really nice to you.
and take your know it all rebuttals. You pull that crap with
me and I'll tell you what time it is real quick!

Rac was simply commenting on an art that we seem to be
slowly losing and I agree with him.  We all know about all
the other musics out there but the arena for those who
cherish the true craft of developing writing and producing
an artful sonic sound that's actually skillfully played by
the hands of actual MUSICIANS is shrinking and/or you must
go underground to the most obscure places to find it as
there are many great musical creators and players out
there today that will never see the light of day.

And if you take the time to climb down off your self-righteous
musical high horse and stop telling people who may have forgotten
more about music than you'll ever know what they need to do and
where they need to go to fix it you might actually learn something
about what's really going on out there....  SILENCE!!!!



Last edited by D. Slam on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:01 am; edited 1 time in total

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17 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:00 am

Sorry Pete I was tired and gettin a little cranky.  Hey everybody is allowed one psychotic episode ; ). I'm just super competitive.  I whole heartedly disagree that skilled jazz musicians are disappearing. If anything there are more than ever. I don't know what it's like in your communities but in mine it is the opposite. Maybe due to vital and strong jazz departments in the schools here. It must be the exception because I get to play with  people who are teenage and early 20s that are exceptional composers and players. It is truly like a dream come true but maybe I'm lucky. I am open to possiblities and I take them when they come my way. I couldn't even imagine being in a place of not enough. I am needing to cut back and pick and choose these days.

Don I don't feel like I insulted anyone's faith. But I removed it anyway. I won't go there but I can still play the drums better than you ; ) cause I know more rhythms and how to improvise with them.
; )



Last edited by kenny on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total

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18 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:03 am

"Sorry, Pete"??! You SHOULD be apologizing to Rac!

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19 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:21 am

Should implies guilt I didn't offend anyone's faith I was actually encouraging it.

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20 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:48 am

Let's all agree to leave that
aspect of the thread touched
upon: here.

study

~~~~~~

As for the jazz of the past: it
very well may be out there and
somewhere being re-interpreted
and we do not know it because
it is not as plentiful but perhaps,
maybe it is still out there.

Speaking for myself, I am very
aware of the techniques used
in the past and they live through
me, when I can play. Believe it
or not, I am still exploring those
techniques.

I sometimes will play to the old
tracks and try and capture that
delicate feel closing my eyes and
imagining myself: there.

Let's hope it is out there.

Regards,


_________________
Pete

To the father of us, all - Billy Cobham!
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21 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:51 pm

Yes Pete, I agree. It's a style of it's own right, having the kind of subtleties not found in what's evolved from traditional jazz. Personally, I found this soft intricacy in Lenny White's most recent approach playing with RTF (soloing). It's as if he really looked back to the great masters of jazz drumming (e.g. Kenny Clark, Philly Joe Jones, Al Foster etc). It was Chick who stated that they were finally playing music or going back to their roots if I may. And that's a reflective observation to the way they were!

Back then it was fusion, but now, particular songs, it felt more jazz-like especially in the swing pieces they did that night and that night only. Of course, RTF had to preserve it's fusion sound for their listening audience - that is to be expected. Of course many will disagree with me but that's okay - It's what I feel was happening with RTF. There have been so much debate on RTF recently about their arrangements on their final tour together. And it was heard only, I repeat, only that one night. The videos you see online are not that concert that I so ambitiously attended. If it was ever to have been taped it would not have been representative to the familiar RTF. Having said that, I believe it was a bold experiment on their part, accepting a negative response. But it didn't matter because it was about the music that was in their hearts and not on the populace. This experimented live RTF experience will never be heard less you were there as I was. Period!

Believe me Pete, if I could have taken a camera with audio into that hall that night in San Francisco I swear the arrangements to their songs were predominantly jazz. However, many were disappointed, which was understandable, but not me. I loved every minute of it!! They were grooving. The way Chick adjusted the arrangements left Lenny especially to really shine as a true classical jazz drummer - it was incredible!  I thank God I could make that concert knowing it was the closing dates of their final tours together....as RTF!

Nuff said.

Just my thoughts here.

Rac

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22 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:35 am

That is very interesting, Rac.
Very interesting.  

They (RTF) and like MO, are
foundations and pillars in
Fusion  - that wonderful
crossover that jazz made into
rock and how it has changed
everything.  We loved the
change and what happened
but I do remember so many
artists resent it.  

I can still hear people
talking about how Tony
"turned his back" and even
when he played more "straight-
ahead" with VSOP etc., they
still laid in on his clearly more
"imposing approach".  Herbie
and Ron just said, "That's
Tony." Others did not stop
there, though.

I think I have been guilty
of saying things like I pre-
ferred or wished etc. I think
I was wrong, now. I think
what I was saying was -
that I just, AT THE TIME,
was more interested in,
OR MORE IN NEED OF DE-
VELOPING, the style or the
approach that I lacked or
that I THOUGHT I lacked, if
you know what I mean.  
We're always trying to grow,
or, at least, I hope so.

Let's face it.  There is only one
constant in music and even life
and that is CHANGE.  What you
saw, that night, in the RTF of
recent times was not the RTF
of the past but individuals, as
they are now and what you
experienced was new and I
sense it was "good".  That we
can see "this" is also as good.

I love reading your views on
drums, music and life.  I just
realized, again, just how long
we have all been together on
this board and am thankful.

In fact, I enjoy reading all your
(everyone on the board) views.
Again, thanks.

Very Happy

Regards,


_________________
Pete

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23 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:05 pm

Rac on RTF:
But it didn't matter because it was about the music that was in their hearts and not on the populace.

The place where I struggle with this comment personally
is NOTHING RTF did was about the populace.

I'm definitely not going down this road again but the reunion
just wasn't as good as RTF in days gone by in my opinion.

I made a CD for a friend of their performance at Electric Lady
studios in N.Y. back in 75-76.  He had gone to one of their
reunion shows.  After hearing the CD he called me up and said:
"MAN!  They sure didn't sound like THAT!"  The response I got
from everyone I talked to was:  "It was a good performance."  
But no one I know was bowled over by their presentation. They
played the classic RTF material, hit all the notes and were on
point, technically. It just didn't have the same fire and attitude!  
And that's okay for some....

Here's what's important, RAC, you enjoyed it and had a good
time, that's the main thing. 

For those who enjoyed the show and had a good time, that's
a good thing.  As for me, the only thing I regret about not being
at the S.F. show was missing the opportunity to meet Rac, face
to face.

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24 Re: Where did it all go?... on Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:26 pm

As for me, the only thing I regret about not being
at the S.F. show was missing the opportunity to meet Rac, face
to face.
D
_________________________

Feelings mutual, thanks.

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25 Re: Where did it all go?... on Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:52 pm

Should any of you ever get the chance to see
Snarky Puppy, I recommend you do so. An
interesting twist in the musical direction they
have taken. Extremely creative.

All very young, all very talented.

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