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Odd Meter Obsessed

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Suss
Admin (Pete)
Ted E. Bear
7 posters

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1Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:45 pm

tconrad



Is it just me, or are there really more musicians playing in odd meters these days? .... I believe there are, and I LOVE IT! .... When Dave Brubeck put out "Take Five" back in/around 1960, playing odd-meter jazz other than maybe 3/4 was very rare. .... Now lots of artists--jazz or otherwise--do it. .... I credit this to many of the 1970's jazz innovators (John McLaughlin, Boomer, David Sancious, etc.) and rock innovators (Bill Bruford's King Crimson, etc.). .... There's even at least one website dedicated to this (http://www.oddtimeobsessed.com). .... I really like it when the artist makes the music flow so smoothly that at first I don't realize that the song is in 13/8 or some other weird meter.

---TConrad

2Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:04 pm

Ted E. Bear

Ted E. Bear

Hi,

First off, welcome to the board, and thanks for posting !

When you ask about these days, do you mean currently ? If so, I would say that odd meters have always been around, it's just a question of the popularity of the music using them. Avant garde and fusion artists have always incorporated that into their songs as did many of the progressive rock bands of the 70's. But odd meter is not limited to them. All you Need is Love by the Beatles is mostly in 7/4 . I also assume that you classify an odd meter as being anything other than 4/4 ?

There are those who play in odd times just to play in odd times. I agree with your statement that you like when the music flows so that you don;t realize it's an odd time. That's the most important thing, isn't it ? It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

peace, TED

http://www.drumminfool.com

3Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:56 pm

kenny

kenny

odd meters go way back to early dance forms that still thrive today. The paidusko is a very fast dance in 5/8 subdivided 2-3. It is the most unnatural thing i've ever had to play but people dance to it with ease so what do i know? From regions in eastern Europe stretching all the way to southern India have dances in 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, 15/8, 25/8 etc..

http://www.balkanmusic.org

4Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:53 am

tconrad



Good feedback.

My initial comments are confined to popular music from english-speaking North America and Western Europe: jazz, rock, country, blues, rhythm & blues, pop, folk, etc. .... People from other parts of the world (India, Eastern Europe, etc.) have been literally dancing to the tune of a different drummer forever.

Kenny: You have an important job. .... When I'm listening to music I usually depend on the drummer and/or bass player to tell me what the meter is--where the "1" is. .... Boomer is great at this. .... If listening the drummer and/or bass player doesn't tell me where the count starts I end up lost.

---TConrad

5Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:17 pm

kenny

kenny

I notice alot more odd times played in modern rock music like radiohead. I've always enjoyed the way Jean-Luc Ponty has composed in 7s alot. Sometimes composers throw in an added measure or beat that makes them odd but it's often hard to figure out what's happening. Allan Holdsworth's music comes to mind. At it's core i think it's rooted in bebop with holes for the drums to fill and sophisticated changes. But you don't sit there and count it you just enjoy the experience. It's listening music. Progressive rock has often milked the challenge of shifting meters constantly that doesn't make much sense on a functional rhythmic level (that'd be for dancing) but it can be interesting to listen too on an intellectual level. Alot of kind of death metal music like Meshugenah is complicated fast and disjointed rhythmically with nasty distortion on it to add to the chaotic sound. Odd times were very mysterious to me. I could play them but didn't have a full understanding. It felt unnatural in jazz and rock. Learning balkan music has really helped me understand how odd times traditionally have been used and how they flow and don't have to sound stiff. I recently learned a macadonian tune in 11 that is in 5 parts . The second section has 2 measures of 7 thrown in. It flows really nicely though because what i've discovered is it is the melodies that make sense of the rhythm if that makes any sense.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

6Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:13 am

tconrad



I completely agree that the listener should be able to just enjoy the music, otherwise what's the point? .... And to me what Luc-Ponty and Holdsworth and others do in odd meters makes the listening experience much more fun. .... Like for example right now I'm listening to Eldar Djangirov's song "The Exorcist" from his CD "Virtue" (http://myplay.com/audio_player/myplay/15563/483589/483595?allowBrowsing=1). .... I'm not sure what the meter is, but the music makes sense---and it makes sense (I believe) because the musicians are playing in such a way that they are communicating to my brain that there is a meter---even if I don't know what that meter is. .... I've heard songs where my ear couldn't comprehend any meter and I ended up lost.

---TConrad

7Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:57 am

Ted E. Bear

Ted E. Bear

Wow what a great tune. Not familiar with this Artist but am very impressed with this song. I assume Eldar is the piano players name ? If so, there is a definite Chick Corea influence in his writing and playing.

As to the meter - well there are a lot of changing meters in this piece but from what I hear the two main times used sound to me like 5/4 and then 7/4 .

I certainly am no expert on counting but that's what I hear. I am sending a copy of this track to my guitarist who is way more knowledgable than I to see what he thinks.

Hopefully some of our other members here will check out the tune and give their thoughts.

thanks for posting that, I really enjoyed t !


Peace, TED

http://www.drumminfool.com

8Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:05 pm

kenny

kenny

That is awesome!!! That's what this website is all about.
That's like my favorite kind of music right there they nailed it!!
There's so much freedom inside that structure these guys are bad ass!!!!
From the main theme i get 3-3-4-3-3-5 so i think of it as a measure of 10 and a measure of 11 making it 21/8. I could be totally off it is too early to be trying to figure this out! Maybe the album has liner notes with some explanations. This is soo great, thank you soo much!! gotta run

http://www.balkanmusic.org

9Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:30 pm

tconrad



Glad you guys liked it. .... Eldar is the pianist/keyboardist. .... That entire CD is worth a listen. .... I have a copy and the liner notes don't have any mention of any meter Crying or Very sad .

By the way, if you guys have any suggestions of odd-meter songs/artists I should listen to, I'd be glad to hear them. .... Thanks so much!

---TC

10Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:02 am

kenny

kenny

bassist Avishai Cohen has some really groovin stuff he has a live dvd i recommend. the drummer is very good. there was a band back in the 70's i believe called national health from Canterbury england that challenged each other to write the most complicated compositions they could come up with. i like their music in fact bill bruford was their original drummer but never performed with them.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

11Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:43 pm

tconrad



That Avishai Cohen Live at the Blue Note is EXCELLENT. .... Great music. .... I put in my order for it. .... For anyone desiring a taste, have a listen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1n8n3HiPmw

---TC

12Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:33 pm

Admin (Pete)

Admin (Pete)
Admin

I agree with you, T-Con and welcome.

What I am hoping is that the more we hear
from those doing them, the more they will
try and make these rhythms groove.

I hope you enjoy yourself, here.

Very Happy

Regards,


Pete

https://bcwtj.forumotion.com

13Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:01 pm

tconrad



Thanks Pete. .... I went to high school in Evanston a long long LONG time ago.

Another artist doing great work in odd meters is jazz guitarist David Gilmore (not the rock guitarist of the same name). .... Have a listen to "Event Horizon" from his first CD "Ritualism" which I believe starts out in 13:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGAnXVY2wgc

---TC

14Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:31 pm

kenny

kenny

That would be an 11. then the solo section seems to be straight time. that's beautiful.
Dave Holland has an album called extentions you might like.

check out these friends of mine from Philly.
http://www.myspace.com/inzinzac
http://www.inzinzac.com/

http://www.balkanmusic.org

15Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:04 pm

Suss

Suss

Hi All and Welcome,

The key to an open door to “odd Time” is to be sensitive to the melody and how it flows within the body of musical compositions. The time and pulse will reveal itself when everyone is honest in their depictions of what is to be presented musically. Ride the melody with me’isms or individualisms.

From a drummer’s perspective, you’ll find the opportunity to punctuate Time without enforcing it. Just make sure that you don’t drop Time and have the courage/skills to venture out within time - leaving others wondering what happened while being amazed. The key is to think EVEN, rather than odd. It all works out among a few (or too many) bars.

13/8 or 17/8 doesn’t matter: where is the melody and where is the music? When we take hold of that principle, the right questions will deserve the right answers.

With Respect,

Suss.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

16Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:50 pm

tconrad



I have 3 CDs by Dave Holland ("Points of View", "Prime Directive", and "Not for Nothin' ") which are all great---I'm thinking about buying more of his work. .... He swings in any meter.

I like Inzinzac's song "71". .... A little rough around the edges.

Suss, those latin-flavored tunes on your myspace page really work for me.

---TC

17Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:14 pm

kenny

kenny

Suss wrote:Hi All and Welcome,

The key to an open door to “odd Time” is to be sensitive to the melody and how it flows within the body of musical compositions. The time and pulse will reveal itself when everyone is honest in their depictions of what is to be presented musically. Ride the melody with me’isms or individualisms.

From a drummer’s perspective, you’ll find the opportunity to punctuate Time without enforcing it. Just make sure that you don’t drop Time and have the courage/skills to venture out within time - leaving others wondering what happened while being amazed. The key is to think EVEN, rather than odd. It all works out among a few (or too many) bars.

13/8 or 17/8 doesn’t matter: where is the melody and where is the music? When we take hold of that principle, the right questions will deserve the right answers.

With Respect,

Suss.
Hi John, I like what you're saying here. The only line that makes me squirm abit is this one. The key is to think EVEN, rather than odd. I think I understand the sentiment behind it is to play in time without wavering. Maybe you can explain it a little more. I feel like it is a very western way of looking at the "odd' time signature phenomenon. Westerners like to place them on a 4/4 or "even"grid to decipher what is going on. But to me "odd" times are exactly that. Nothing even about them. They are patterns that don't conform to what we may think we already know in western music. They have there own circularity and are outside of anything even. Some rhythms are even treated with a purposeful lapse of time in between the groupings of 2s and 3s to create a weird sense of push and pull. It is called microtiming and is a very strange and rare concept indeed. It is something felt and not notated. But that is an extreme case.

Bill Bruford once stated while with king crimson how he felt odd time signatures worked over a 4/4 grid and by creating a polymetric set-up they all of a sudden became more musical. I love the guy's music and respect him but i think this is the example of how westerners have this need to belittle what they don't understand in depth and need to meld it with their own interests and areas of knowledge.

anyway good to read you Suss, peace

http://www.balkanmusic.org

18Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:15 am

tconrad



Kenny: I have a question for you after listening to the Balkan music by Kef. .... You have seen people dance to this? .... Did they make it look easy? .... I think I would be falling over myself if I tried dancing to those foreign meters (but listening to it is kind of fun).

---TC

19Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:48 pm

kenny

kenny

Look at the video on the page playing the seattle folklife festival for about 350 dancers to a 6/8 pravo. These International folk dance groups know every dance in creation! I was as surprised as you are. I thought this music was obscure.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

20Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:08 pm

tconrad



Wow! .... They're really doing it. .... I'm amazed.

I wonder if those people have problems dancing in 4/4. .... I mean, 4/4 is probably too easy for them.

---TC

21Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Tue Oct 05, 2010 7:19 pm

kenny

kenny


I have little old blue haired ladies yelling at me "faster faster!!"
That 6/8 pravo is one of the easier dances and can go on for hours.
they have 4/4 chocheks and all kinds of things. What is impressive is the musicianship of some of these groups. they have 8 year old kids that blow me away on any instrument. Here's the guy known as the billy cobham of Bulgaria

salif ali on drums on this 7 beat ruchenitza 2-2-3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifYM8Sl6BEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsAhFmn8Z4k
check this kopanitza 11 subdivided 2-2-3-2-2

http://www.balkanmusic.org

22Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:35 am

woofus

woofus

All ears this thread; thanks everyone for posting. Been checking out a lot of Eldar on youtube and drummer, Ludwig Alfonso. kenny, great stuff from you, as usual.

http://www.myspace.com/jazzstream23

23Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:49 am

tconrad



Kenny---

Both of those groups you posted do GREAT work. .... I think both would gain an audience among jazz people (like those on this forum). .... Love all the improvisation. .... Is this lady scat singing in the following song starting at 3:35?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZI_iaag30

I have no idea what the meter is in this song.

You got any more groups like these?

---TC

24Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:03 pm

tconrad



Huge thanks to everyone who posted on this topic. .... You all have expanded my mind. .... If you have a minute, check out this one by bass player Tal Wilkenfeld called "The River of Life" from her first CD "Transformation":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQgd1fmPI1k

25Odd Meter Obsessed Empty Re: Odd Meter Obsessed Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:20 pm

Racman

Racman

He may have been mentioned already but have you considered David Garibaldi of Tower of Power? Just last month I purchased his Breaking the Code DVD and it is awesome. His treatment of odd time intergrated into funk is just too cool....and challenging might add.

The beauty, I think, is that the oddness is merged into common time, which makes David a master in his own right. He quotes early influences evolving from drummers like Bernard Purdie and many early to mid-sixties funk/soul drummers that performed and identified the James Brown rethym section. This approach was actually occuring way back then and had a strong pull on David's pre-Tower of Power era.

Folks I'm not talking about just sounding odd time but exicuting odd meters yet having the skill to remain commonly groovy - that's the banana that's missing in a lot of stuff that's going on these days. All the fancy fluf but no groove. It would do much good if this generation of drummers pay attention to what's been taught by people like David.

He describes (demonstrates) how the common paradiddle note can be very effective when parts are alternating between ghost and emphasized notes. Check it out when possible it will blow the brain cells - in a good way of course.

Shalom,
rac

http://www.glennracoma.com

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