Roach

While researching classic drums I came across one of Max Roach great solos. Roach really is a true composer on the kit and a lot to learn from.
rac

https://youtu.be/Ns6i4YAe11Y

I'm going to make some enemies on this thread....

To me, this underlines one of the very attributes of Buddy
This is a classic solo, but played somewhat sloppy in my opinion.
Again, one of the things that put Buddy head and shoulders above
most players of his time was how clean and precise he could do the
most difficult of things. This clip just doesn't do it for me. Some of
ugliest singles I've ever heard.

Sorry guys, I'm just not one to play this "emperor's new clothes game."

It ain't automatically good just because it's Max! I sorta ran into this
kind of thing with Ted on the E.L.P. clip that was recently posted by
Pete I believe. I thought THAT particular tune sucked while Ted saw
fit to point out all the "greats" that were playing on it.... Fantastic!
Nevertheless, from where I sat the tune still sucked.

The concept here by Max is brilliant. Unfortunately he didn't seem to
have the technical prowess to fully pull it off. No, it didn't suck! But
it fell short of the mark.... My opinion of course.

D. Slam wrote:I'm going to make some enemies on this thread....

Again, one of the things that put Buddy head and shoulders above
most players of his time was how clean and precise he could do the
most difficult of things... The concept here by Max is brilliant. Unfortunately he didn't seem to
have the technical prowess to fully pull it off. No, it didn't suck! But
it fell short of the mark.... My opinion of course.

In one respect I must agree with DSlam on this... however in another respect I am drawn to the history of what those "Times" and "demographics" were like when cats like Max, Tony, and other drummers were coming up in the ranks.

When I met Max Roach in a loft in NYC while I was studying vibes with Warren Smith, Max did phenomenal things with his craft that I've yet to hear today with anyone... particularly with his brush technique. Buddy Rich (whom I've never met) was more accessible to society in the USA and appreciated by the same. It's amazing how societal influences can affect one's attitude. People are crippled today physically and emotionally because of those negative influences...

... whereas Buddy was able to get his technique published, how many equally talented (or gifted) contributors from the "minority" were even considered for publications to the masses? Comparitively speaking, very few - most everyone back in those days would hang out at clubs in neighborhoods where when the shoe was on the other foot, people of color were told we weren't welcome elsewhere.

Thankfully, it is no longer politically correct to assume such a stance these days - yet the sentiment of bigorty still exists if one ventures too far out of an urban area (whether it's New Orleans, St. Louis, Chicago or New York). Forget about the Pacific Northwest - the only music that that city is noted for is PUNK Rock - yet there are great people there nonetheless... as well as great musicians from the mid 20th Century (Jimi Hendrix) into the 21st Century.

This is my opinion based upon factual history... if bigotry didn't exist, how could Mitch Mitchell ever get to play with Jimi when those in "charge" said they wanted Jimi to be the only one of color on the stage. I guess that's why there were only 3. Great music though - and I love it.

P.S. No enemies made... just a reminder of where we come from to the present and where we're going in the Future - and THAT without forced exclusion or intimidation.

The Young Rascals was happening. I got to admit, I think drummer Dino really drove this band.


https://youtu.be/qd_BEqg8wvc

Dino Danelli (born 23 July 1944, Jersey City, New Jersey) is best known as an original member and the drummer in the rock group, The Rascals. He has been called "one of the great unappreciated rock drummers in history."[1]

A jazz drummer by training, Danelli had played with Lionel Hampton and (by 1961) was playing R&B in New Orleans. He returned to New York in 1962 with a band called Ronnie Speeks & the Elrods. He also worked at times with such legendary performers as Little Willie John.[2] Danelli met Eddie Brigati (a pickup singer on the local R&B circuit), and Felix Cavaliere (a classically trained pianist) in 1963. Later that year, Danelli and Cavaliere traveled to Las Vegas to try their luck with a casino house band. They remained there until early 1964, but then ventured back to New York City.

In late 1964, Danelli teamed with Cavaliere, Brigati and a Canadian-born guitarist named Gene Cornish to form the Rascals. Cavaliere and Danelli traveled to Las Vegas in January 1965 to back up singer Sandu Scott, but returned to NYC in February. That month they debuted with the Rascals at the Choo Choo Club in Garfield, New Jersey.

In addition to playing drums (before Cavaliere and Brigati began composing original music), Danelli and Cavaliere often scouted new repertory that the group could perform. In a 1988 interview, he cited their trips to record stores as yielding such songs as "Mustang Sally" and "Good Lovin'."[3] He was with the Rascals' for seven years (1965–72).

Along with Cornish, Danelli formed the group Bulldog in 1972 and they produced two albums before disbanding in 1975. They both then joined the group Fotomaker in 1978 (initially with ex-Raspberries member Wally Bryson). By 1980, Danelli joined Steven Van Zandt as a member of Little Steven & The Disciples of Soul.[4]

After performing with Cavaliere and Cornish at the Atlantic Records 40th Anniversary concert on May 14, 1988, there was a short-lived Rascals reunion tour later that year without Brigati. All four original members came together to perform at their induction to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1997 and then once again on April 24, 2010 for the Kristen Ann Carr Fund dinner at the Tribecka Grill in Greenwich Village, New York City. Danelli has resumed working with Cornish in their group the New Rascals, who were still touring as of 2010.

He is also a visual artist, and has designed album covers for The Rascals and Little Steven & the Disciples of Soul.

Uncle, John,

From the point of view from which I make my point, demographics
has nothing to do with this... Good is good and bad is bad.

You have those with little to no talent selling out stadiums
while those who have spent their whole lives honing their
craft and excelling in the ability to execute those gifts scrape
out a meager living in backstreet bars and on street corners.

I'm not talking about marketable opportunities. I'm talking about
taking up one's instrument and being able to execute upon it well
regardless of the status quo. Good is good and bad is bad. I tend
to first look at a circumstance in it's simplest form rather than
immediately adding to it and complicate things. If your car is running
hot, the first thing you do is check to see if your radiator cap is tight,
not rush out and buy a water pump!

Whatever position of society Max, Buddy or whoever found themselves
in has no bearing on a well executed single stroke roll vs a poorly executed
one. I mean c'mon, let's cool it with trying to throw the race card into
EVERYTHING!!! If anything, it's a stronger reason to strive to be BETTER!

I love Max. This clip didn't say much to me. And somehow I find it hard to
believe that whatever drumming skills he may have lacked was because he
had to load into the gig through the kitchen...

Wow Spanky! I did not know this stuff with this guy. He is somebody. Reason why I posted this video because I use to mimc that lick played between the bell of the ride and the high tom - kind of a latin-rock lick. I was later addictive to it and applied it to just about every song I played during my teen years I think it drives.

It was'nt untill I started playing with my beloved jazz pianist mentor/friend Bob (nick-named for bop) that he told me, mid-way of a song, to knock that sh_ _t off!! It did not apply to a particular song he wrote. This was back in the mid-seventies. So I learned.


Thanks for that information here.

rac

Listen to the above link.

That first video that Rac linked was taken later,
when Max started to move towards matched grip
and his attack and cleanliness was totally different
LIKE EVERYONE that switched to matched after
years and years of traditional.



Listen to Max, traditional. He is the pioneer that
Rac acknowledges, in my opinion.

If you want to die and go to the promised land,
listen to Clifford Brown and Max Roach - Alone
Together. Just fabulous stuff.

RIP, Max.

As for Buddy, it is hard to compare anyone's
technique to his but remember that what you
see Buddy do usually is what he does best
and that is traditional. He changes drastically,
too, when he matches.

Regards,

Thanks Pete for the clip. Listening to that comparison between the two Buddy seems to be a heavier player while Max a lighter player. But I still feel that Max is more of a true jazz oriented player. I think the comparison lies in the styles; one a big band player vs. a more smaller band player. Would you agree and also that I don't think Buddy would sound as good as Max playing a straight out jazz trio scene. Okay...here it comes.

Rac

D. Slam wrote:I'm going to make some enemies on this thread....

To me, this underlines one of the very attributes of Buddy
This is a classic solo, but played somewhat sloppy in my opinion.
… The concept here by Max is brilliant. Unfortunately he didn't seem to
have the technical prowess to fully pull it off. No, it didn't suck! But
it fell short of the mark.... My opinion of course.

D. Slam wrote:Uncle, John,

From the point of view from which I make my point, demographics
has nothing to do with this... Good is good and bad is bad.

You have those with little to no talent selling out stadiums
while those who have spent their whole lives honing their
craft and excelling in the ability to execute those gifts scrape
out a meager living in backstreet bars and on street corners.

Whatever position of society Max, Buddy or whoever found themselves
in has no bearing on a well executed single stroke roll vs a poorly executed
one. I mean c'mon, let's cool it with trying to throw the race card into
EVERYTHING!!! If anything, it's a stronger reason to strive to be BETTER!

I love Max. This clip didn't say much to me. And somehow I find it hard to
believe that whatever drumming skills he may have lacked was because he
had to load into the gig through the kitchen...

Nephew,

I’m sorry you missed MY point. It might sound appropriate for you to rebuff an argument with a cliché , but the reality exists. Please remember that I appreciate the opportunities I’ve had in the midst of the cauldron – and during a time when it was unpopular (even divisive) to think any other way. To replace the “race card” you mentioned with a biblical principle, I recognize the truth in Proverbs 18:16… and clearly there’s no one (1) side to this discussion.

Clearly, Max had what it took to bring notice... and why Racman focused on what was posted.

Well, we’re ALL correct then; but then perhaps we ought to leave it alone without becoming the enemies as you suspected when speaking about societal issues with their affect upon its citizenry. Too often people speak out of their experience as if it can be applied to everyone.

I have personally dealt with some individuals who lacked the motivation expected of them (and they themselves) because of negative reinforcement. Sure, I agree: it sounds like a cop-out, but if the dynamic wasn’t true, then why is B.F. Skinner’s “Operant Conditioning” such a fundamental principle among counselors, psychologists and therapists today?

In my discipline as a minister (and not necessarily a musician), I was able to see/hear what Max R. was doing. I too cringed at the very same things you made mention of. In one word, I’d call it timidity – or maybe he was allergic to the grease in the kitchen. The man had that evening behind the drums in his head; it just didn’t come out of his hands. So on that score, I agree with you…

Yet anytime I see/hear players from a time before I was even thought of in my Mom’s womb, I’m constantly brought back to the theme of why did some have an advantage while others suffered in their development. I truly believe that’s a valid consideration deserving review today as much as it did in those days. I repeat: “a consideration” and NOT an excuse.

If it weren’t a “valid” question Nephew, then why did your comment contain (?):

D. Slam wrote:I'm going to make some enemies on this thread.... The concept here by Max is brilliant. Unfortunately he didn't seem to have the technical prowess to fully pull it off. No, it didn't suck! But it fell short of the mark.... My opinion of course.

The reason why is because you recognize that you were offering your “opinion” in a forum where others do have opposing views in one regard or another. For some reason, I grafted toward what he was seeking to achieve and offering my opinion on the subject, when other dynamics are easily dismissed under the guise of something having:

D. Slam wrote: nothing to do with this... Good is good and bad is bad.

That’s too simplistic in my view and ignores why such a great talent (like Ray Charles, Charlie Pride, and a pantheon of folks expected to “bring it") when the conditions were not conducive for the same. With more than My opinion, we are all products of our environments unless we create (re-create) our own. That’s easier said than done.

Nonetheless, I agree Nephew Don! And you’re not my enemy... in fact, I think it’s healthy to view the same thing from different perspectives... especially when one doesn’t wallow in the past but regards history as a stepping stone for improvement with music and society at large.

Racman wrote:Thanks Pete for the clip. Listening to that comparison between the two Buddy seems to be a heavier player while Max a lighter player. But I still feel that Max is more of a true jazz oriented player. I think the comparison lies in the styles; one a big band player vs. a more smaller band player. Would you agree and also that I don't think Buddy would sound as good as Max playing a straight out jazz trio scene. Okay...here it comes.

Rac

It's already there Neph. Racman! You nailed it. It's all a matter of style and the preferences of the person who likes or dislikes what is heard (beginning with the musician him or herself).

Thanks Pete! I guess it can't be said that either drummer's technical ability really says much unless it makes music or complements the music being made.

I am UNANIMOUS in my opinion!

Oh, BTW, being unanimous in “my” opinion is borrowed from Molly Sugden’s comical
appearances on the British comedy’s “Are You Being Served.” She was dubbed the mistress of the double entendre where one thing can mean several. [viz. “a word or expression used in a given context so that it can be understood in two ways, especially when one meaning is risqué.] Almost an antonym with Billy (Boomer) Cobhams "Palindrome," where no matter how one looks at something it means the "same" when read both backwards and forward.



So it is with ideas, opinions and miscontruence of personalities and perspectives. Hilarious indeed, so long that one doesn't take offense at the Intent among transparent views.

Regarless of his social posititon, Ray Charles did "bring it"
He didn't allow these inluences to hamper his ability to
execute great performances.... And niether did Max.

If you want to believe that Max's physical ability to
execute a clean single stroke roll was hampered by
his social status, then that's cool. As you said, It's
your opinion and you're entitled to it... I for one ain't
buyin. I think in many cases the race card is valid,
while in other cases it's merely used as an excuse to
STAY down.

Everytime something goes wrong in our community it's
the "white man's" fault... PLEASE!!! The asian community
were also a highly oppressed people, yet look how they're
thriving today. The American Indian, they had their land
stripped from them while being relegated to reservations.
and though it took them awhile. they are becoming a rich
people, building major casino complexes across the land.

The biggest major factor that I've seen for this kind of
success with these races is THEY STICK TOGETHER AS
A PEOPLE! Quite frankly, that's a lesson that the black
community could adopt. Instead of always playing the
race card because we can't "get over".... Except on
one another.

As a people, what does the African American have? Our
culture rotates between Kwanza, the dashiki, belitttling
our women with filthy rap lyrics and sagging pants...
Pretty pitiful!

But getting back on track, I was only commenting on what
Max did behind the kit in this particular clip that Rac posted.
I never looked at it in such a manner that the reason for his
somewhat less than stellar performance (in this clip) was
because he was an oppressed black man... As I see it it's quite
the contrary. Many great artistic creations came out of this
very circumstance such as the negro spirituals and blues,
which were then followed by gospel, Jazz and so forth.

D. Slam wrote:Regarless of his social posititon, Ray Charles did "bring it"
He didn't allow these inluences to hamper his ability to
execute great performances.... And niether did Max.

If you want to believe Everytime something goes wrong in our community it's
the "white man's" fault... PLEASE!!! As a people, what does the African American have? Our
culture rotates between Kwanza, the dashiki, belitttling
our women with filthy rap lyrics and sagging pants...
Pretty pitiful!

But getting back on track, I was only commenting on what
Max did behind the kit in this particular clip that Rac posted.
I never looked at it in such a manner that the reason for his
somewhat less than stellar performance (in this clip) was
because he was an oppressed black man... As I see it it's quite
the contrary. Many great artistic creations came out of this
very circumstance such as the negro spirituals and blues,
which were then followed by gospel, Jazz and so forth.

You're almost getting it Don. The reason why African-Americans are not getting it as an ethnicity is because too many have a "slave-mentality:"

viz... I can't do this or cannot expect that! That's not my ilk; and just because I've been wherever to college, I'm constantly met with mentalities saying the same thing in America among "black" folks! Now that's pitiful, and I totally agree with you there. Yet one's dress doesn't define the person. It's not what a person puts on, but what comes out of that person that defiles or defines him. Yet, I will admit that the vulgar rap is horrid! I totally agree on that score. I'm actually embarrased by it as much as you are. Everyone is embarrased by this vocalization of disrespect for a woman and man. Those are the real monkeys.

I've been on stage with Ray Charles - not playing with him, but simply the tour bringin' it. At that time I was working with Mr. Donny Hathaway. Certainly Valdez in the country was in the mix.

During a soundcheck, Mr. Ray cussed his band out like a sailor because the horn section wasn't doing what they should have done when we were playing a concert here at the (late) Omni for a B'Day and the Lady from Georgia. I can only imagine what James Brown must have been like with his band: Bill Withers was enough for me when playing "Lean On Me" and quarter notes on the foot and just groovin in that concept.

I realize what you say Don - I actually FEEL it! And you are absolutely correct... but dig deeper my brother (affectionately known as my Nephew). We all come from the same stem, yet claiming to be spiritually motivated must incite some Biblical agreement with what God inspired to be written and imparted to human kind.

I remember the time when I introduced this spiritual concept on Boomer's old website(s) and the forum, that you in particular belittled my having done so. We fought likes cats and dogs over the years. Yet the lion is laying down with the lamb these days among those with skin.

My point is that we should recognize the roots of descrepancies in order to grow branches in any endeavor. I HONESTLY believe that you already know this - simply because you are an intelligent person and a very fine drummer for the music YOU like. I also believe its because of the conversations we've had over the years.

Let it go Don... I obviously am not trying to convince you of what you are already not convicted by. Rather...

Here's what the Word says: Genesis 9:27. Japheth was the son of Shem. Prophesy has already been fulfilled in many respects. Argue with the Bible; not with me. Argue with any artform by other clinicians and disciplines: that's why its called a practice.

As for music and melody - make it sweet Nephew! I love ya man ... and am only seeking to diffuse this discussion amicably.

... again: I agree with what you wrote, while still steeped in the history of a country that appears hypocritical when one from the USA refuses to use his or her Passport to travel elsewhere.

With Boomer's "Shadow" and Kofi in mind.

Where is the "shadow" my brother unless there's Light to cast it? WE (the Called Out Ones) are the Light of the world now. So may it shine! [Matthew 25:29 in concert (symphonea; agreement) with the fundemental Principle: Matthew 5:16]

There should be NO violence or terrorism; just appeals for common sense withtout the cents or Dollars toward survival. This community of Boomer's & Pete's speaks volumes to me. Please, please, please Nephew D. I GOT your point DSlam... please get mine (Proverbs 20:5 & Proverbs 25:2)

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Shadow-SussQuatched2011.mp3 [SussQuatched as in "carefully thought out" with fruit.]

My point is why does anyone get caught up with drugs to the point that they lose their lives benefiting another by "words" only? Here's what Donny wrote and (as you know) I played upon. Those who really know "us" should know that the music is among the various avenues to communicate without anyone being "enamoured:"

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Valdez-DonnyHathawayWithSussLIVE!-CarnegieHall-1973.mp3

Much like manna, we cannot and should not live on yesterday's Bread [hint].

Max seemed to be a more raw player yet also more compositional. if you go through the you tube clips of him he was a huge influence on tony williams as far as approach. While buddy could execute fast stuff i don't find his work rhythmic as in the way max used the drums to work with rhythm itself. buddy displayed his technical and rudimental accuracy i don't find that as funky or very interesting to hear anymore. yes it can be exciting but not really developed rhythmically. It doesn't have the same depth for me. Not sure how this thread got onto the young rascals or race issues but max is cool in my book.

Wow... It ain't all that, uncle John... All this "let it go" and "defusing."
I was only commenting on the Max clip and somehow it got into all this!
It's how you see things I guess... If the spark plugs are bad then just
change the whole darn engine... What can I say? If that's the need
you see, then go ahead and fill it my brothah.

This thread has gotten WAY off the beaten path... I'm gonna
have to leave you here. I hope you find your way back.

I do want to say however, that I have NO recollection of ever
belittling your spiritual efforts here.

Though you do have a tendancy to ramble and lose focus of the
initial subject matter... And I've told you so.

Max seemed to be a more raw player yet also more compositional. if you go through the you tube clips of him he was a huge influence on tony williams as far as approach. While buddy could execute fast stuff i don't find his work rhythmic as in the way max used the drums to work with rhythm itself. buddy displayed his technical and rudimental accuracy i don't find that as funky or very interesting to hear anymore. yes it can be exciting but not really developed rhythmically. It doesn't have the same depth for me. Not sure how this thread got onto the young rascals or race issues but max is cool in my book.

Kenny, well said.... I totally agree. I will say this about
Buddy. He disguised nothing... His execution was so nearly
perfectly flawless, it blew and still blows the minds of the best
of them. Billy called him a "drumming genious." Yes, Max was
more a heart felt player and that in itself is a wonderful thing.
Buddy had a technical impact that was simply staggering.
Surely, I can appreciate both.

Buddy had a technical impact that was simply staggering.
Surely, I can appreciate both.
D
______________________________

So can I.

rac

_________________________

Spanky,

Reason I stuck the Rascals video is because these were clips I ran into during my research on vintage drums. That's all. But glad you liked it.

rac

______________________________________

Uncle Suss,

Those clips of english comedy can be daunting to say the least. It's a humor that's worlds apart from ours but I do see the relevance in your statement(s) here. Thank you for your valued input.

Carry on my friend.

rac

What I love about being us is that
we can learn from both of these
incredible players. They teach us.

As a matter of fact, I have been on
Buddy's technique, over the last
1.5 years, or so, while working on
Tony's older approach and yet,
when I apply them, I am neither
one and both of them.

It's all good. Everyone has some-
thing to say. It's about who will
listen to them. They are talking
to us, still.

Amen papa Pete!

rac

That the Point you guys. Expand the horizons and be prepared for any contingency. It's all in the attitude and not in our opinions or inability to embrace opportunities.

Racman wrote:
Uncle Suss,

Those clips of english comedy can be daunting to say the least. It's a humor that's worlds apart from ours but I do see the relevance in your statement(s) here. Thank you for your valued input.

Carry on my friend.

rac

I'm glad that you see/hear the subtleties. The WORLD is a lot smaller than Oahu these days. And those who refuse or cannot travel are bereft of the ability to embrace what makes us laugh at each other.

Exposure expands - while top 40 only only restricts.

Right on the money, Pete...

I was only making an observation of a quick moment

in time, relatively speaking. Somehow, that got pushed

into a whole other realm... Oh well, no biggie. it seems

to be the way we roll here on occasion.

[quote="D. Slam"]
...Though you do have a tendancy to ramble and lose focus of the
initial subject matter... And I've told you so.
quote]

What some deem as "my rambling" is actually "analysis." Every jit and tottle - rather than beating out a Path that is already forged my friend by folks greater than anyone walking the face of the Earth Today. I don't play music that way ("beating out"); neither do I live Life that way.

Therein is the conundrum while a palindrome at the same time.

Admin (Pete) wrote:What I love about being us is that
we can learn from both of these
incredible players. They teach us.

As a matter of fact, I have been on
Buddy's technique, over the last
1.5 years, or so, while working on
Tony's older approach and yet,
when I apply them, I am neither
one and both of them.

It's all good. Everyone has some-
thing to say. It's about who will
listen to them. They are talking
to us, still.

Same with me Pete.

http://www.johnsussewell.com/Aint-iTaShame_Ashford&Simpson&Suss-1978.mp3

In a forum of different ideas on the “same” subject, it’s very possible to get caught up with impatience and unwillingness. Especially when anyone doesn’t take the time beyond a “quick moment” and putting it to writing to express their same views.

Just this morning, I learned that a friend in Tennessee was given the diagnosis that he only has two months to live from an invasive cancer. Cancer is only one (1) of the illnesses plaguing human kind.

My point is that while we muse on drummers, musicians or anyone, how could I possibly respond to what is impossible with MAN yet possible with God? This guy is not a musician; nor has any skill toward that effort of expression. Yet he’s alive and has not exhausted his efforts to stay alive.

Yet we abide here as a Community playing musical chairs?

Shame on us in the hope that the exchange of “ideas” will never die. One can never kill an idea – though many pass away every day.

Apply that to your music and see what happens. The last Word is God’s… not any of ours.


Peace to All, and

kenny wrote: Max seemed to be a more raw player yet also more compositional. if you go through the you tube clips of him he was a huge influence on tony williams as far as approach. While buddy could execute fast stuff i don't find his work rhythmic as in the way max used the drums to work with rhythm itself. buddy displayed his technical and rudimental accuracy i don't find that as funky or very interesting to hear anymore. yes it can be exciting but not really developed rhythmically. It doesn't have the same depth for me. Not sure how this thread got onto the young rascals or race issues but max is cool in my book.

When I was coming up as a musician, and not just a drummer, there was a publication that Buddy Rich inspired. I still have the tatered book. I worked through it from cover to cover - yet my preferences in expression took precedence over the "technical" aspects. I'd have to dig the thing out of a box to access it today.

The beautiful thing about "development" in any arena is that we can eat watermelons and still spit out the seeds. We can still glean the wheat from the chaff.

... as to the rest (The Rascals & race?); well, that's part of your journey too.

See what I mean?!

Good to have you back, Uncle... just like old times.