THIS is what I'm talkin about!

When you can show me where all these young
chops masters can make it happen like this, that's
when I'll be convinced that they can REALLY play.

And this is just a rehearsal!

That is a nice lesson in what being a band leader is about, notice how well Boomer knows the music and
how he gives direction to make the tune happen. It's not just about what he is playing.

I'm curious to know what "this" means to you, D.

Curious to know what young chops meisters you have in mind.

Billy's work is always solid and funky and smooth. Yet, I am unsure what you are seeing or hearing that is beyond the capabilities of drummers at that level of playing, including the young lions out there. Is it the idea that the young players 'overplay' and Billy just keeps things grooving well in that clip?

Asaph wrote:I'm curious to know what "this" means to you, D.

Curious to know what young chops meisters you have in mind.

Billy's work is always solid and funky and smooth. Yet, I am unsure what you are seeing or hearing that is beyond the capabilities of drummers at that level of playing, including the young lions out there. Is it the idea that the young players 'overplay' and Billy just keeps things grooving well in that clip?

Ahhh,  Very good question Asaph and therein lies the
very matter which I'm talking about.

In truth, I don't think many of our "young lions" even
have this capability.  That's my point.

Because one may have the physical technical ability to
play slick or difficult patterns or even chops, does not mean
that they can capture the very essence of a given piece,
style or whatever it is you want to call it.  Taking funk for
example, playing a "funk" beat doesn't necessarily mean it's
going to be funky.  Or playing: Ting - ting ting ting - ting ting ting,
doesn't mean that you've captured the feeling of what the music
wants to or is meant to say jazz wise.  Oh sure you played the
recognizable pattern that identifies the style, but to capture the
essence of what should or needs to be said is an entirely different
matter.

My view is that it's not just about what the player hears and interprets
but also what's already there.  Some players will tell you that there are
no rules.  I say differently, I say that there ARE rules and you just have
know what those rules are so you're able to bend them in the right
direction....  And maybe even break them.  

You can go on youtube this very moment and find 10 year olds with
astonishing drumming "capabilities".  But the question is capabilities to
do what?!  You find these youngsters that's been playing for less than
their own lifetime doing things that someone who's been playing 50
years never though of attempting.  But then there comes a time for
the rubber to meet the road, when someone places a piece of music
in front of them and says, okay, make this happen...  And they haven't
a clue as to how to make it swing the way it's meant to.  Why? Because
it's the development of that voice, that essence, that knowledge of
speaking the language of the music whatever the style is what takes
nearly a lifetime while these chops come in only a few years (or less).

My personal belief is many players will and do use a lot of notes and
a lot of gear to cover up what they lack in technical and musical skills.
I'm one that believes that every piece, big or small one uses on a drum set
should have a single, sonic, purpose within itself and not be there simply
because it makes one "LOOK" like he or she can play.  

I'm much more impressed with a player who can make a four piece kit sound
like a 10 pc. than I am with someone who has an array of stuff and playing in
such a way that makes me walk away thinking what a waste of energy and
resources having all that gear sitting there and not really saying anything to
warrant that.

but getting back on point, In this clip, Billy captures what is SUPPOSED to be
said, what was meant and what worked absolutely.  He compliments and honors
both the drum station from where he works and his peers whom he supports.....

I hear very little if an of that from these youtube chops junkies

'SUPPORT!'  Hmmmm, a whole other subject matter in itself.

Absolutely right Don.

Easy for you to say, D.L. Since you're among those
artists that contributes to making the MUSIC work!  

Speaking of capturing the essence and intricacy of application to the music. He also applies subtle notes that creates spaces in the music just at the right places and time. He plays a lot and a little to maintain the essence of the music. Just my thoughts...need I say more.

Using headphones helps in hearing the intricacies that's being played.

He's playing Tamas, just like mine on this gig...interesting  

Go to point 33.11 on the slider (Wolfbane).

Artist:
Larry Coryel
Victor Bailey
Lenny White

rac

D, in stating the thing about ting, tinga ting the truth hits home. On the music I have been recording for the last year and a half I often employ the ting, tinga ting because I feel it. BUT it isn't an authentic jazz performance. People say it sounds jazzy to them but I know different. Jazzers develop phrasing skills that make things authentic. I never really delved in to jazz so never truly learned the language. It is the same as someone speaking English as a second language. They get the point across but it isn't the same as one who learned to speak it from one year old.

Having said that, so many of the younger players are schooled and educated in various music institutions today that they are learning the fluency of languages early on. Plus all the education videos we did not have growing up. They have access to things we needed a lifetime to be exposed to. I believe that is one reason so many young drummers have such amazing abilities. The bar was raised very early for them and they have worked to jump it. Whether or not these younger players can contribute to a band situation also seems probable, again, because of their education or study materials out there to learn and do. They learn while playing with other musicians.

I agree about the big drum set approach. I love large setups, always have, and seek to use every voice in the set up in the music I use it for. In the last decade or more now there has been a shift towards smaller sets. Not too many big sets out there anymore. The craze is speed. More and more speed, but as an educator pointed out to me the other day - if you get so fast there is no perceivable space between your notes you don't have music anymore. You must have space between notes to truly make music.

Racman wrote:Speaking of capturing the essence and intricacy of application to the music. He also applies subtle notes that creates spaces in the music just at the right places and time. He plays a lot and a little to maintain the essence of the music. Just my thoughts...need I say more.

Using headphones helps in hearing the intricacies that's being played.

He's playing Tamas, just like mine on this gig...interesting  

Go to point 33.11 on the slider (Wolfbane).

Artist:
Larry Coryel
Victor Bailey
Lenny White

rac

This is a really nice tune I have a live version of Victor doing
this piece with the Billy Cobham Band some where in Italy I
believe.

I'm sorry, Rac, I don't mean to pick on you. But Lenny's playing
today does actually nothing for me. For me there's just no fire in
what he does any more. This saddens me too because Lenny was
A MAJOR, I repeat, MAJOR influence on my playing in my earlier
developing years... Streamlined, Astro, Pirates, Big City, Venusian
Summer, the 29 albums, Not to even mention his brilliance with RTF!

I don't even like listening to him anymore, not because he can't play
but because IMHO he's a little more than a shadow of what he once
was behind the drums... I don't mean to be cruel or mean. Believe
me, it pains me to have to admit this. :

Asaph, with all the instructional tools
available today, there's still that element
that can NEVER be taught, the voice of
the music and the ability to truly understand
it and speak it with a compatible voice of our
own.

This is the ongoing, never ending and never
fully attainable process.

Hey...no apologies here. As you understand we all have our opinions and may not agree with you but that's just what it is... just an opinion. But I really think that Lenny has developed such a delicate, intricate and tasteful touch to his playing regardless of age - an intensity of it's own. He's playing to what the style of music is asking of him. He wrote it and plays it at his call accordingly. Yes, a few have played Wofbane but it's like a Stevie Wonder song, there is only the original artist. I'm sure Boomer does an incredible job on this tune, no doubt here, being within his own style.

I actually love Lenny's playing on a few arrangements now, even better than before.

My thoughts here and I'm good with your opinion.
rac

God, I love this country!     

In thinking this through, I find that It's actually more than
just an opinion Rac because it's how his playing effects me
directly.  Thus I'm not telling you what I think but more so
how I am genuinely affected by what he does.  It's not what
I assess, it's what IS for me, personally.  Opinions are generally
not based on one's experiences but are based more in the category
of speculation.

An opinion can be changed.  The only thing that would make
things different for me here is if Lenny changed the way he
played in this case.  

Now I fully understand that it's NOT that way for you and
I'm not trying to convince you or anyone else otherwise...
This is me!

There' no doubt in my mind that Lenny CAN play.
He just doesn't do anything interesting anymore IMO.
He sorta does what he does to get through the gig.

The rhythms are there, the timing's all there just no
snap, no personality...

Now with that said, I also want to say that I've only
noticed this in live performance.

Lenny did an album 5 or 6 years back with a cut on it
called "Wolf bane"  and he was SMOKIN!  he did a solo
on that cut that was just too wicked.  The other cuts
on the record were happening also.  He did some really
cool things with Chaka Khan on that project as well...  
Love it!

Lately, live however Lenny's playing just leaves me cold
I'm truly sorry to have to say.

I think one of the main reasons recent RTF stuff has left me feeling less than excited is because the other guys seemed into it, and remain creative, or try to be. Lenny just seems to be ... playing his drums, not creating on them like he used to. Not sure that is exactly what I mean, but it seems as close as I can get at the moment. Of course, the same can be said for many drummers at that age. It's a very physical instrument. The fires begin turning to coals, then embers. I would think Lenny, being a composer, would be able to keep things relatively fresh, even within the context of RTF just playing the same songs for 40 years.

D, if time means musicianship and maturity then would it not be futile to expect young lions to play as seasoned vets? They do what they do well beyond what others did in their generations as young lions. Time will give them what they need to fit well into their chosen musical ventures.

In many ways Terry Bozzio changed drumming forever. If Krupa brought drums to the front, Bozzio made them a one man band, as it were, and put out there a large imprint on what young drummers do. Everything became soloing and chops. Minneman, Lang, all the drummer's festivals, the dvds. It has all made its mark on young players. We never had such things when we were kids. What you had was recorded performances, and some concerts of the same. Nothing was as zeroed in as it is today.

D, if time means musicianship and maturity then would it not be futile to expect young lions to play as seasoned vets? They do what they do well beyond what others did in their generations as young lions. Time will give them what they need to fit well into their chosen musical ventures.

In many ways Terry Bozzio changed drumming forever. If Krupa brought drums to the front, Bozzio made them a one man band, as it were, and put out there a large imprint on what young drummers do. Everything became soloing and chops. Minneman, Lang, all the drummer's festivals, the dvds. It has all made its mark on young players. We never had such things when we were kids. What you had was recorded performances, and some concerts of the same. Nothing was as zeroed in as it is today.

It's not so much the ability of these youngster as it is the adopted
craze, Asaph.  The drum set has been changed from an instrument of
music to one of athleticism, which in itself has been done very well.
The problem is it's no longer music.

These kids play with little regard to what's going on around them.  For me,
it's all about listening with an intent of honesty realism and being selfless.  
The 'support' ethic from young drummers is almost non existent.

Of course they have information that is more readily at their disposal. but
how they choose to use that information is entirely up to them.  I must
say however that much of this chops craze is and has been perpetuated
by the clinicians.

In all truth and fairness though, when I was a young player, I didn't see it
either.  Man, I saw Billy do a clinic at San Jose State University and went
stone nuts after that.  I thought my band mates were going to kill me.
Of course this was in the middle of the fusion craze and not many cared
so much about putting down what was needed until Steve Gadd came
along.

I concur what you say about Lenny...  Oh well, at least the two times I saw
him live (Griffith Park and Twenty Nine), he was smokin!  I can't say if it's age
or not, as age will effect different folks in different ways.  Look at Buddy who
was smokin right up to his very last public performance.  And Billy, today who
at age 69 is still killin it!

Such is life I guess.

One of things for me, anyway, is that many of the young lions may excel on soloing but I really have no interest in the bands they play in. I don't like the music. So whether or not they can support well is moot to me.

I have grown to respect Max and Tony and other more melodic, compositional players more than ever. I appreciate Jeff Hamilton and other modern players in that regard. The idea of "chops," tons of notes all over the place, speed for the sake of speed, kind of leaves me flat now, even when veterans do it excessively. Although, in its place it can be pretty exciting. Who of us would not want to see a Mahavishnu Orchestra with a Cobham on the throne even today? Not many drummers or musicians play with that intensity and abandon today. Not that I know of. I do not believe Billy could do it today. It was exhausting for him then. It would kill him today. Which, I believe is what we see with Lenny and RTF. It's a lot of energy to put out night after night with that kind of music. Of all the vids I have seen of Billy in recent years I have never seen him do jaw dropping, roundhouse rolls like he did with MO and his early albums. Even Buddy slowed down a little with time. Every human being comes into this life with an amount of vital force which lessens with age. Just the way it is. Its effects are different person to person, but it is there, which is why young lions are young lions, I guess.

You mention Gadd and playing what is needed. Gadd was/is not a Billy or other firestorm of the day. Just not his thing. I believe what MO needed was the intensity, speed, and power Billy put into it. Gadd with the MO? It would have been a different animal altogether.

I recall Billy stating in an article that he felt MO should have had a percussionist and that is why he played a lot of notes; kind being both. The vehicle really defines the drumming for me. Gadd has never played in a MO type group, that I know of. Music with Chick after RTF would be closest? As far as I know of. Gadd on Aja made a huge impact. Just the right fit for his approach and style. That's really the issue for me. If the young lions find the right vehicle to be involved in it can really hone their abilities. Hey sooner or later reality checks hit and band members turn around and say, This isn't the MO or drum clinic. Chill.

Be it a little or a lot, do whatever is needed at the least.
Billy was right for M.O. Steve Gadd made what he played
work not because "less is more", but because what he played
worked. Plain and simple! If the song called for him to unleash
then he'd do that.

Have you heard any of Steve's intense work on Stanley Clark's
"Journey to love" album?

I have not heard that album.

One of things I have found intensely interesting is the artist's concepts as a soloist when apart from the band which gave them status. In that regard while I love RTF I haven't really found what they did as individuals as interesting. I had all their first albums when they came out, and follow-ups. Lenny's was okay. Al's was a good effort. Stanley's was cool. Chick has been around forever, anyway. But I really haven't found the same chemistry on individual efforts that hits the mark for me. Same with MO, though Spectrum is a great set of compositions. I would buy their individual efforts just because of the status, but always felt somewhat let down with their results.

I will say I saw Gadd playing with Stanley, Hancock, and another musician who's name I forget, and his solo was one of the more energized and spontaneous I'd ever seen him play. Was a youtube vid. Don't know if it was a tour of the band and Journey to Love album.

Masterful Boomer, in that clip.

Yes, Don. Journey To Love is
and example of Steve covering the
the entire rainbow of drums. It
was tight as tight and raw as raw!

Thanks for reminding me of that one!

Regards,

Asaph wrote:I have not heard that album.

One of things I have found intensely interesting is the artist's concepts as a soloist when apart from the band which gave them status. In that regard while I love RTF I haven't really found what they did as individuals as interesting. I had all their first albums when they came out, and follow-ups. Lenny's was okay. Al's was a good effort. Stanley's was cool. Chick has been around forever, anyway. But I really haven't found the same chemistry on individual efforts that hits the mark for me. Same with MO, though Spectrum is a great set of compositions. I would buy their individual efforts just because of the status, but always felt somewhat let down with their results.

I will say I saw Gadd playing with Stanley, Hancock, and another musician who's name I forget, and his solo was one of the more energized and spontaneous I'd ever seen him play. Was a youtube vid. Don't know if it was a tour of the band and Journey to Love album.

The individual projects WERE different as they were meant to be.
But a "let down" by comparison Not in my book!! Stanley's albums
were nothing short of brilliant. "Stanley Clarke" "Journey to love",
"School days" Lenny's "Venusian Summer", "Big city", "Astro Pirates"
and "Streamline" efforts, mind blowing! AL Dimeola's "Land of the
midnight sun", Stellar!

And Billy's "Spectrum", we don't even have to go there! Status has never
impressed me in terms of buying anyone's material. I actually took Billy's
"Inner Conflicts" record back to the record store because I didn't like it.

To each his own, but the previously mentioned records have their place in
fusion history right alongside the likes of RTF and M.O. At least in my book.

Would have been historically interesting if each of those musicians made their solo albums first, and then joined together for RTf, or MO, etc. Would RTF have still outsold the solo efforts? I believe so. I don't know, but have any of the solo efforts outsold or come close to units sold for the bands that put these musicians on the well-known map? I realize the nature of the question. It doesn't speak to the artistry of their solo compositions. On the other hand something made MO, RTF, Weather Report, etc popular. The same musicians going solo, using other fine, and well-established or hot newbie musicians for their projects were not able to rouse the same size buying public or audience. Why is that? I think it is simple chemistry and/or strength of likeable compositions. Many produced standout "hits" from solo efforts. No question there. And sure the very genre of their efforts changed in some cases.

I went to see Lenny in New Haven, CT. He dbled w/Jeff Beck's band. We left before it was over. Just no fire. May have been the rigours of touring for them, I don't know, but the music was bland by comparison to RTF and the compositions they came up with together. Forty years later RTF is still selling out halls playing those same compositions. And I know RTF will play compositions by the individual artists, too, like School Days. But again, just my own taste in music.

Asaph,

I can't say who outsold who.  And it's really not important
to me as popular does not always translate to 'good'.

But here's something to consider:

Though he was already a monster bass legend in his own right,
it was the album "School days" and the bass solo in the tune
of the same namesake that played a major role in ascending
Stanley to the arguable status of world's greatest bass player
at that time.

"School Days was a game changer for the legendary Stanley Clarke in many ways. Not only did it forever etch the title superstar musician to his name all over the world, it also crossed his incredible music over to a whole new level of listeners, which to this day continue to flock to this album for the solid funk, rock, jazz and fusion release that only this master jam could achieve.

After a very successful run with Chick Corea's Return To Forever, world class bassist and multi-instrumentalist Stanley Clarke branched out on his own and made some very credible solo albums. When School Days hit in late 1976, it was not uncommon to hear tracks like "Hot Fun" and "School Days" being played on all formats of radio. Whether it be urban, rock, or jazz, the School Days album was the go to album of choice for many radio stations, as its rhythms and cosmic funk/rock/jazz energy would truly enhance the listening experience to a whole new realm."

http://www.soundstagedirect.com/stanley-clarke-school-days-180-gram-vinyl-records.shtml

I don't know as School Days put Stanley on the map more than his stint with RTF for those few years, as far as with the fusion crowd into all those bands back then, but certainly School Days put him out before a wider audience. I have the album. It's a good one. Perhaps that album is the one out of all solo efforts of those bands which stood its ground for popularity/sales against the band the artist came from originally. I wonder how many units Spectrum has sold over the years? I had all of Jan Hammer's solo efforts. Never held my attention like MO did. Of course, he too went on to big things after MO. And Tony Williams showing up on some of those various solo efforts back then certainly didn't hurt.

Not even McLaughlin's further MO units could match the musical intensity of the original, imho, yet it spawned break out careers for Jean Luc Ponty, whose music I love, and Narada, who went on to do things in a totally different genre as a producer which became quite successful, from what I've read about him.

Some bands are able to produce a chemistry that only seems to work for them for a certain time. Apart from those bands, not so much, within the same genre. The same can be said for bands like ELP and the big prog names. Asia being the exception, which was an "all-star" band that proved successful. But even that band went commercial and made its money then the members headed back to efforts they'd rather play in as far as the music.

Asaph wrote:I don't know as School Days put Stanley on the map more than his stint with RTF for those few years, as far as with the fusion crowd into all those bands back then, but certainly School Days put him out before a wider audience. I have the album. It's a good one. Perhaps that album is the one out of all solo efforts of those bands which stood its ground for popularity/sales against the band the artist came from originally. I wonder how many units Spectrum has sold over the years? I had all of Jan Hammer's solo efforts. Never held my attention like MO did. Of course, he too went on to big things after MO. And Tony Williams showing up on some of those various solo efforts back then certainly didn't hurt.

Not even McLaughlin's further MO units could match the musical intensity of the original, imho, yet it spawned break out careers for Jean Luc Ponty, whose music I love, and Narada, who went on to do things in a totally different genre as a producer which became quite successful, from what I've read about him.

Some bands are able to produce a chemistry that only seems to work for them for a certain time. Apart from those bands, not so much, within the same genre. The same can be said for bands like ELP and the big prog names. Asia being the exception, which was an "all-star" band that proved successful. But even that band went commercial and made its money then the members headed back to efforts they'd rather play in as far as the music.

School days became a sort of staple for bass players to learn.  
Stanley was already on the map but that record put him in a
category all by himself for quite some time.


If I remember hearing correctly, Spectrum sold abut a quarter
of a million copies.