The amazing Virgil Donati

Love the Hi hat work on this. 2:45
Nice grooves and Killer bass drum work 6:50

http://vimeo.com/54230457

Fluent Italian, too. That's impressive.

His precision has always been noteworthy. In some ways, as fantastic as he is, the precision seems almost mechanical to me. I can watch him for long periods of time, but I rarely find myself tapping my feet or feeling anything organic in nature. You just get enthralled with all the precision and speed he employs. Kind of the same feeling I get watching Mike Mangini and players like that.

His Pearl drums sound very musical. Tuned very well. I used to find his Premiers kind of dead sounding on all his vids I've seen. Ten inch tom sang, the rest not so much. But the Pearls sound really nice. Of course, maybe he has switched mic company, as well, because Premier makes beautiful drums.

I think Donati is not as heralded because he's not had a major name band to play with. If he has, I'm not aware of it. He's a jobbing drummer. His name would be even larger if he was in a vehicle that had a big fan base. Not that that is important. He has his own shelf in the drumming pantry, that's for sure.

Incredible what he does staying with traditional grip, too.

I've always felt that one of the things that
makes Virgil stand out was the fact that he
plays what he plays without sounding mechanical.

I'll be among the first to admit that his patterns are
involved, even overly so but that being said, Virgil is
Virgil and he's the absolute best when it comes to this
approach. The Minnemanns, the Langs, the Rabbs and
those of this ilk just don't quite hold up with Virg when
it comes to this concept. Mike Mangini to me is a different
story. I think he's very musical and a bit more grounded.
He does amazing stuff but with a more straight forward
approach and I believe that's what got him the job with
Dream Theater. Mike has a way of making it all feel right.

Virgil will polyrhythm you to death. I've been to a couple
of his clinics and the man is wicked. I wish he'd settle
down more often than he does. The drums are constantly
in the forefront. Kinda like being in a large room full of
people and your getting these diverse signals from all the
different conversations going on.

This is a problem I also have with Dave Weckl. Very cool
stuff but it's okay not to catch all the accents or embellish
on another players solo... Just be still and put it there.

All that said, I really enjoy watching and listening to Virgil
work.

He's played with some big names. though, I hink the problem
has been the greats he's played with are players that musicians
are familiar with more-so than the general listener. If he could
ever hook up with say Herbie Hancock or Chick Corea, guys that
have an appeal with a broad listening audience as well as other
musicians then he'd be in that circle of household, legendary
players. For the most part the artists he works with are world
class, it's just that no one knows who they are.

This is a perfect example of that which I observe in Virgil's playing which just seems so metronomic it lacks organic musicality. It's an audience vid, but I'd rather watch it than some ridiculous producer/director vid where camera angels change every nano-second. I hate that stuff.

This is the last 3 minutes:

You mentioned Chick and I wonder if Virgil can actually play funky/latin things with the same conviction he plays his other stuff. I've never seen him in a funky situation. Maybe that is the thing I miss, which Weckle and others with the poly skills and metronomic technique and speeds have - the funky, earthy, organic feel: the fun stuff. Virgil just plugs in, turns on and goes like a machine. That's his style, and he commands it, for sure, better than any others, like you say.

I have a real difficult time listening to Minneman and Lang and others who employ a zillion notes and I hear little that is musical. Rhythmic, for sure, but not necessarily musical, if that makes sense. So, I tend to disregard all the speed and stick gymnastics and get bored after awhile. Virgil plays with such power you expect him to pop holes in his heads or crack his rims or break sticks left and right. He's obviously a very fit guy, much like Lang is.

Billy has that power. I remember an article where he mentioned he chopped wood to get exercise and stay fit. Billy was Rocky Marciano in the early days.

Well, what I hear is a drum solo. It okay that it's not based around groove patterns.
The fact that he may play with near perfect time and precision as far as a listener's ears
are concerned, I think it's a bit unfair to label him or anyone else as mechanical on that
basis.

Actually, that's the issue I take with Lang and Minnemann. They sound very mechanical
to me. But it has nothing to do with their precision and timing. For me, they just lack
musical feel in what they do. I don't get that with Virgil.

Here he is in a couple of different situations than the usual.

Tina Arena:



Alan Holdsworth:

See, now, I watched that Holdsworth concert yesterday and for me Virgil played exactly the same as he solos - lots of notes, beat displacement, and rigidity. I thought he was not matched well for Holdsworth's style and music. He didn't flow with it, he chopped it up and diced it up and I couldn't enjoy it. Especially is that the case with the compositions Holdsworth did with Tony Williams. Of course, Tony was a player in command of his own universe. I would be thankful to just play as Tony did on those songs and not think about adding my own spin to them. Virgil did and for me it sounded way too mechanical and busy.

The whole beat displacement science of drumming gets old for me real quick, especially in music that has a nice organic flow to it. Vinnie can throw something in and not take away. For me, guys like Virgil take away from the music when they do it.

I'd never heard of Tina Arena. Quite a voice, and Virgil apparently stayed a whole lot more traditional for that gig, needless to say.

Of course I don't completely agree with your assement of
Virgils playing. For me, the displacement thing can be a bit
much and admittedly I find that for me at times it gets in the
way even in what Virgil does. What I don't hear at all is the
mechanical rigidy you speak of.... And in this case I thought
Virgil made things flow very nicely. But I understand. Our
diverse concepts are what makes us unique... To each his
own.

Not add your own spin??!! That's what makes us, US, wouldn't
you say?

I don't want to play any of these tunes and sound like Virgil or
Tony. I wanna sound like me! That means I do my own thing,
add "my own spin".

I have to say he doesn't really swing or support in some ways. I guess it's that choppy displacement thing. I love how he plays but maybe not quite right for Allan's style. I think Allan's music requires a little more hard bop. But I like Gary Novak better for that group. Or Gary Husband either one of the Garys. I'm not so into Chad with him either though he's interesting just not that swingin. When I watch Virgil he appears to have a kind of stiffness in his total muscularity. He hits hard and precisely. I'm not hearing dynamics so much. When i don't look at the film and listen i like it better. He also probably had a crash course in the music and haven't played together on a regular basis so I give him a lot of credit for nailing the music. I think he's amazing one of the truely GREATEST today. It's like these drummers have their own agenda and fit it in that's cool it's their personal style. I would say maybe lay off the meat milkshakes and lighten up a little bit. he's awesome though

You don't get that atletically built from downing milkshakes.

Virgil's NOT a stiff player and never was! I have no idea
what you and Asaph are listening to.

I'm listening to the original video you posted i like this alot.. Nothing stiff or mechanical on there to me. The Holdsworth stuff i felt like he was messing with the groove a little much for the particular music. Like he was too involved with being fancy and not just laying down some support like he had left his bag of tricks open when he could have chilled out a bit, making it sound choppy with that constant displacement stuff when it was not helping the music flow but holding it back. Like simplify and play support sometimes and be subtle. There is nothing subtle about him he is at the forefront all the time. To me it was inappropriate. Just lay back sometimes. You don't have to impress everyone all the time. That's why Gary Novak really works for me. He stays super tasteful until it's his turn to make a statement then bam his solos are very impressive. Still i find Virgil a superior player in what he does on his own turf. And i think a year touring with Allan given time to really know each other musically he would sound different than what he played there. It really sounded like his first gig with them which it may have been. And he nailed the parts and that impresses me bigtime. the man is really good. I would like to hear him play a straight ahead piece and see what he does in that realm which i believe Allan's music is actually more akin to. Thanks for posting this stuff Virgil is an eye opener to say the least!

Again, I disagree. The music was moving both melodically
and progressive wise. I hear a lot of 2 & 4 in the Holdsworth
clip and when the tune moved, Virgil along with everyone else
moved accordingly... This ain't straight ahead rock or r & b.
This is fusion. And though I do feel that Virgil can get a bit
polyrhythmic and displacement happy at times, I don't hear
that as being overly so in this situation. I think he played
superbly.

All this talk about sounding mechanical and rigid, You just don't
do what Virgil does, play with those he's played with and come
off like that as it's virtually impossible for someone of his ability.
That's like learning to ride a bicycle and after 20-30 years of riding
trying to purposely fall off via loss of balance. You reach a point
where that aspect is no longer an issue.

Likewise, Virgil or anyone of his calibur that's been where he's been,
and done what he's done with those hes done it with just isn't going
to sound rigid and mechanical... Ain't gonna happen.

I would like to hear him play a straight ahead piece and see what he does in that realm which i believe Allan's music is actually more akin to. Thanks for posting this stuff Virgil is an eye opener to say the least!

LOL! I guess I would have like to have heard John Bonham or
Alex Van Halen play some straight ahead but that's not what
they do is it? If it's not one's forte' then why do we need to
hear them attempt it simply to validate what they do already?

Though I've heard Him touch on straight ahead playing, its not
what he specializes in and I don't need to hear him do that to
enjoy what he does already.

If he doesn't play it to your liking you're just gonna cut him up
anyways.... So why do we need to even go there?

Wow. I am saying there are passages where he doesn't groove he constantly fractures the rhythm into little bits. That's cool but it breaks up the rhythmic flow. I think he's brilliant. But not so much in that particular setting. He played the parts for the tunes though to me it sounded forced. That's how i hear it. Am i supposed to say hurray for Virgil when it doesn't swing or groove hard to me? I just have to call it like i hear it. I can't do or know how he does half of the stuff he does but i do understand the concept. And i think to constantly be playing that card is his weakness. The most important thing he could do is get out of the way and learn some new tricks like backing off occasionally and supporting a solo rather than getting all up in it. That's the most important thing any drummer can do.

Well to many of his fans dismay, Allan Holdsworth's biggest influence is John Coltrane and hard bop. So in my estimation his own music is an extension of hard bop. Sure he uses different grooves. To my ear Virge didn't swing- bottom line. I'm in awe of the man in every other area so yes, I want to hear if this m***** f***** can swing! my bottom line

You have a right to your opinion.... I have a right to mine.
And mine is yours is wrong. If the music was based on a
more laid back approach, then I'd be inclined to agree with
you. But that's not the case. You spoke of how hard he hits.
Yet in the Holdsworth clip he really wasn't using that much
force at all. Funny, we wouldn't dare pull out our drumsticks
next to guys like this and yet we feel we can tell them how
and what to play. Rather than admire one for what he or she
does, we knock them down for what they don't do. Everyone
knows how the game should be played right up until they're
told to hit the field.

No matter. These greats need only consider the source with a smile.

I'm Virgil Donati, one of the world's best!..... Excuse me but what did
you say your name was?!'

D. Slam wrote:You have a right to your opinion.... I have a right to mine.
And mine is yours is wrong. If the music was based on a
more laid back approach, then I'd be inclined to agree with
you. But that's not the case. You spoke of how hard he hits.
Yet in the Holdsworth clip he really wasn't using that much
force at all. Funny, we wouldn't dare pull out our drumsticks
next to guys like this and yet we feel we can tell them how
and what to play. Rather than admire one for what he or she
does, we knock them down for what they don't do. Everyone
knows how the game should be played right up until they're
told to hit the field.

No matter. These greats need only consider the source with a smile.

I'm Virgil Donati, one of the world's best!..... Excuse me but what did
you say your name was?!'

Speak for yourself pilgrim. I don't find him that exciting. But mob rule always wins. He's made it so that matters. bullshit. i know plenty of amazing musicians who aren't household names but they are as good as it gets.
I told you i think he's brilliant. he's got tons of chops but i don't think he'd know what to do with them without constantly riding that one trick pony of dissecting the beat. that's great if your in a beat dissecting competition but this is music and that extreme style of his gets old when he just keeps doing it over and over and over and over and over. keep it special if he did that about half as much he'd be interesting but he gives away his whole schtick as soon asa he can then we've basically heard what he's all about by the first tune. the dude is so stuck in his technique. great let him i don't have to listen to it.

He's made it so that matters. bullshit.

You bet your beach boy grooves it matters!
He didn't do it because he was some popular
sell out. He made it where he is because he's
good, REALLY GOOD! and that goes whether
you decide to aknowledge that or not. The man
did his homework and he's among the best of the
best. As a matter of fact he is the absolute best at
what he does. How many of the unknown players
you know that you yourself can say that about!
Please, spare me that tired, worn out cliche'.

Everythings not about playing straight groove patterns
that's easy for you to comprehend and feel. many times
the feel is right there under your nose. But when you're
working with a pre determined closed mind. You can
never see past you're own limited abilities. And the sad
thing is those abilities aren't limited because any of physical
and technical short comings but rather your short sighted,
mental mind set.

You've shared on more than several occaisions of the less
than able players you've found yourself working with. In
truth I believe it's indicative of your own abilities or lack
thereof.... Birds of a feather....

You're right you don't have to listen to it... Then why do you?!
Though I find myself asking myself this very question when
corresponding with you.... Why do I, why bother?

Here's something for you to ponder. Alan hired him to tour
in his band. It's obvious he knew and thought enough of
the possibilities to want Virgil on this project. So that being
said maybe what I need to do is give some serious thought
to the argument you bring to the table.... NOT!

Thanks for making your usual personal attacks i enjoy them they make me stronger. Don all i am saying is his style does not w0rkin that setting for me personally. He sounds like his technique. If you enjoy that, cool! you can listen to him. he is a machine of technique. It's cool when he's playing his exhibition but for me it doesn't work that great in a group with holdsworth. I don't dig his metal like sound that's all. he doesn't seem to have a funky bone in his body i do not find him, funky his knowledge is somewhere else and it is not funky to me.


i have the same problem with alot of Terry bozzio's and some others playing and i think he has gotten better recently in his interplay but he has a certain technique on his gigantic tuned drumset and it just gets to the point sometimes where i feel like i'm watching a demonstration and lacks a certain emotional depth. He's accomplished but i seriously wanted to walk out on a set with hoboLeMa. It was 4 on the floor rock with nothing interesting groove wise. it was like a wall of terry playing a rock beat. Like hello think about the listener sometimes you don't have to be on display all the time. Play an intersting groove no don't displace the beat every other note. And that's what it feels like. The same thing you said about tony royster jr. It's just not the entire picture musically for me. okay? is that all right Don that people hear things differently?

You put up those odd time grooves i have to say they were worthless nothing going on funky there sorry. But i was nice to you and offered encouragement and keep it up and you can enter the drum nerd olympics one day. because that's what it is like. Seriously i find the kind of music that Boomer plays on his drums so many millions of times more interesting than Virgil it's hard to comprehend. Billy plays his feelings where guys like you try to put on their master thesis in drumming all the time ends up musically vacant. It backfires because you haven't tried to put those things together with the organic part of music. That's the emotional combined with the intellectual. I would love to hear Virgil forget every concept he knows and just play from his heart in a group and put it all together but for now it's an academic joyless ride to me. can i state it any more plainly. I'm happy for him he does really wicked shit on the drums I just want to hear him loosen up and play some music but that will probably never happen so i'll settle watching his displays and take him for what he is. Is he still touring with allan yeah they are probably a good match up intellectually Bu6t that sounded lifeless. like chad wackerman used to sound.

hey don send some more vids of you mustang sally with some groove like you can do and then flip all those crazy kind of things virgil does into it and you may be onto something ! you can do it good luck. Your drumming can only improve that's the way i see this cat he's great on his own thing but in a situation his technique over rides any feel he may have gotten out of the music but he bulldozes through with what he can do which is amazingly innapropriate to hear every second. And billy himself has stated he felt like he did that earlier on in his career like on mccoy'd fly with the wind. think about the listener sometimes think about the people in the band! don your drumming is weak i'll tell you straight up you gotta learn some new styles and get out of that rut. that heavy metal r&B thing you sound like slipknot or linkin park. I will smoke you on a drumset your own kit I will make you look like an infant of groove.

I have to say I'm on board with Kenny as far as Virgil's playing. I see this drummer as someone who is glove in hand for prog rock and the like, which is his forte'. Holdsworth admires him. Everybody does. And if Holdsworth thinks Virgil added well to his music, so be it. As a listener, I do not hear a pleasant mix.

I would not be afraid to take up my sticks with Virgil. I'm not sure why that came up. We are all in our 50s, I assume, and know what we do and why we do it. I'm not into beat displacement as so many modern drummers are. I am far more musically minded, I believe, than metronomically minded. Old school, maybe, but that is fine. We all have a place. I am not schooled, nor have the professional background, but I am not reluctant to say what I do behind a drum set, and would say it on the same stage with anyone. No one should be afraid to take up their sticks. I agree with Ed Shaughnessy - you make your own voice, you speak your own voice, and even if asked to go up against Buddy, you do it, and you play your voice.

Virgil has a voice that is his own. I just do not believe it works in all musical contexts. He certainly would not play with Tina Arena the way he plays with Planet X. I believe some modification of his style would have made Holdsworth's overall sound, better. That's my ears.

As far as Tony and the pieces Allan incorporated and all, Virgil DID play Tony's basic hi hat feel on one piece. I forget its title. But the beat displacement, double stroke stuff got in the way for me. I certainly believe musicians should put their own voice to things in situations like that, and I imagine a humble Donati asking Holdsworth if he wanted him to play the piece as Tony did. And I am sure Allan said, Do whatever you want to. Virgil stayed true to the overall tempo feel, but the dissecting just doesn't work for me.

I do see and hear Virgil Donati as a rigid, mechanical-type player, as I mentioned already, and that works fine for most of the music he plays, with constant time changes, and a heavier feel. I just do not believe he could fit in well with RTF, or MO, or Ponty, or Weather Report and music like that. He isn't loose enough, imho. It would be an *interesting* evening, that's for sure.

Agree with you Kenny and Asaph about Virgil,amazing technician ,same thing for the Lang, Mangini, Minnemann,nice to see at drums clinics only...
ps:I saw Harvey Mason with fourplay 2 weeks ago in Paris,and let me tell you this man is just a monster(in my opinion) but yes,we can't compare Harvey to Virgil!Peace,Stef

Well, you guys know how I feel
about V. I think he is the most
important recent drummer and
a real influence on me.

The things about drummers like
him is that, when they come on
the scene, they break the norms
and he is still breaking them.

They did not like Elvin, at first
and they did not like Tony and
they did not like Billy and I can
go on. These guys really shook
the ground but they changed who
and what we are.

I will always love Virgil.

Regards,

That's it, Pete... I figure why get worked up with
those of intermediate mediocrity. Let them have
their say and move on.... What's it matter. Virgil
Donati is among the best of the best. The proof
is in the pudding as Uncle John always says.

I do not believe anyone stated they did not like Virgil's playing. We stated he is not necessarily fit for all musical contexts. I do not see how such a belief places us in "intermediate mediocrity."

I seem to recall Billy shaking the drumming world so much there was not a single negative voice out there. I was not a listener of Miles Davis' music, but I have read Tony did the same thing and people were astounded by his ability to drive the music and he was hailed as an innovator from the start. Those who protested his playing, protested Miles' music in general, at the time, same as jazz purists criticized fusion when it came out in full force. Tony had a background in Hendrix and other forms of rock and played it with authority with his own voice. He could shift well. I do not believe Donati's style works in that way for some other styles of music, though I do not know that he has actually played other styles than prog rock, which a great deal of Holdsworth music is. When it gets into fusion ... something with a looser, funkier feel, I do not like the way Donati slices up the time. It makes everything too mechanical for me. How does that reduce my musical tastes to mediocrity? Mercy, that seems pretty hard-nosed. I guess I should be thankful I am not into "advanced mediocrity."

I remember like it was yesterday
how people were not on the Billy
and Tony plane. I remember so
many times hearing that they were
"too loud" or "too rudimental" and
that they made the music bend to
them and they - not to the music.

Of course, that is all subjective but
there it is. People always react to
different the way they do and usually,
it is not favorable.

I will confess that I reacted to Virgil
and his linearity negatively, at first.
Then, I saw and met him and I
found everything changed.

I was blown away just like that, with
Billy, Tony and Steve.

It's great having such monsters be
a part of us and I am STILL learning
from them!!

A Sample of Virgil:

Desert Girl Sample

I am most intrigued by the way
he can work through/with bass
because of his incredible facility
below. That is what really gets
to me more than anything else.
I just love that.