Simon Phillips

Asaph wrote:"

Look at Elvin. Watch any and all solos of Elvin on youtube. Triplet City. Played the same solo ideas his whole career. Simon would bury Elvin Jones on the same stage, but Elvin is considered one of the great greats. Elvin had an unmistakable voice.

I have to take a little offense to this statement. I have sat behind Elvin and watched and listened to him and he had exceptional powers on a drumset. Believe me he spoke through his drums. This man had ferocious intensity to sweet brushwork and everything in between. His dbl strokes were incomparable! perfectly even, fast and strong. and he could take things over the top and up through the roof. He was so passionate, a startling tour de force on a set of drums. So i can't let you say that about Elvin, it is just not true. No you tube video can represent this man's heart. You can break him down note by note something he never did, cause he intuitively knew how to make the music happen. How many drummers quit playing with Coltrane? Elvin had already seen Coltrane through his best and moved on when he became so extreme. Because he was a well rounded musician and had a truly superhumanlike ability he never worried about. I've experienced it! man that cat could run a band in the most tactful and evenhanded way (no pun intended). He knew how to get the most out of his musicians. He really is one of the absolute greatest of the greats! Art Blakey too!! perfection!! The whole big picture is what these guys developed!
Anyway;

I was playing with my all original brazilian/afro/funk band last night on a simple 4 piece. I didn't need flashy anything. Just the knowledge of the music to make it happen. It is very satisfying to play with a group and play a part in the music like part of an engine that keeps it alive. have interesting breaks and compositions good soloists. It doesn't have to be filled up with amazing drum pyrotechnics all the time. Leave that to the soloists and learn support. It's not all about how amazing the drummer can play fast. Sometimes it takes a certain amount of compassion not to throw a million tom fills and just keep a hard rockin groove to support the whole affair. I like alot of notes but i also dig groove. i want to move people to dance not have dorky dudes stare at me all night. When it's time to play some trippy fills i can do that too but, there is great truth in playing less notes and harder sometimes. In many cases if drummers would play about half as much they'd sound twice as good! It's something learned by experience with different styles of music. Not the rule in all music. peace

I agree, Kenny. It does sound like you are stating less is less, and serves the music well at times, and more is more and also serves the music well at times, depending on the music.

Again, we have the distinction between "groove" music, in general, and types of music which groove, but also enters a different territory. All popular music, by definition, should groove in some way or average people will not grasp it.

As far as Elvin, no, I never saw him live. But apples to apples I have never seen Simon live, either. So, seeing the kind of intensity with which Elvin played, and seeing the style Simon plays with, I do believe Simon would overtake Elvin in a typical drum event "battle" where abilities are matched stroke for stroke. But, such impressions and opinions are not worth much of anything, all things considered. Music is not sport, as much as some try to make it that.

I seem to remember that Ginger Baker and Elvin had an evening like that once. Fans of Baker said he took the evening. Fans of Elvin said the opposite. With Elvin doing his triplets and Baker doing his quads I'd imagine the evening was a real thumper.

Elvin's style, to me, was so organic and aboriginal in nature. That is why he fit so well with Coleman, I believe. I believe Baker had the same kind of thing happening in his hey day. Although for Baker it may have been more drugs than innate musical expression. I don't know. He claims Sam Woodyard and Phil Seamen as a major influences. Neither had a style like Baker morphed into when he entered the rock arena.

Elvin Jones may have had THE most recognizable voice ever behind a drum set. To me, that is what makes him one of the great greats.

Though the Baker Jones battle was not filmed, here's one that was. Baker and Blakey. It's a very interesting film on a number of different levels.

Having your own voice is everything to me. If Elvin had the most recognizable voice in jazz, Baker had it in rock.

BTW, apparently, Beware Mr. Baker, the documentary on Ginger's life, is winning awards at film festivals.

Blakey is so cool next to that tweeker!

Elvin's my hero. Simon could take taste lessons from him.
Drum battles are dippy anyway.
it was on Ginger's gig and on his turf. Ginger thundered through with his idiotic dbl bass and thus declared himself the winner. What was he gonna lose a drum battle at his own gig? Afterwards Elvin said, " Nasa should send that guy into orbit!"

I agree with Kenny here 110%

Elvin was superior to all mentioned on this topic--Period.

If you've never seen him live, you really cannot comment on him. I had the honor of seeing Elvin play many times in Boston and to make it short, I've never seen anyone do what he does at all...or even come close.

The feel and energy he projected was pure MAGIC. I've been to thousands of shows, and he's the best I've ever seen.
I can't even put into words what he did on a drumset...He was put on this earth to do what he did, and seeing him was like a religious experience.

Unbelievable guys..

He was LIFE on a drumset. He was time itself...

He was an ultimate Icon on the instrument...

Now I like Simon..Have his instructional dvd's and he was definitely an influence on me, but if he were here on this board, I know he would echo these sentiments..

No one comes close to Elvin...he was in his own category as far as I'm concerned.

If you've never seen him live, you really cannot comment on him.

So true, D.L. I had the pleasure of seeing Mr. Jones do a clinic at Guitar Center
Circa 1982- 83. he was with Tama at the time. Then the very next evening he
did a concert with his "Jazz Machine" at San Jose State. He KILLED it on both
nights! He swung so fricken hard it was ridiculous!! And his solos were so
continuous with and so wrapped around the groove it was crazy! Blew me away!

Simon burying him on the same stage??!! I don't think so! Not hardly!!!

I also have the two instructional dvd's Simon put out, Dave... Very good. I had the
two speed hand and feet paradiddle exercise down pat. I stopped practicing it and
now I struggle with it. Back to work!

Oh yeah- That paradiddle exercise is nuts! I remember trying to get that one down..haha

I used to go see Elvin at the Regatta Bar at the Charles hotel in Cambridge.. and Elvin just blew my mind every time.
I used to hang out after the shows and He and his wife Kieko were so genuinely friendly and encouraging to me...that had more of an impact on me than any drummer.

I have a Yamaha Elvin Jones Custom snare drum that I had him sign for me and it is one of my prized drum possessions..
among countless magazines, and drum heads etc.. He gave me some of his sticks after one show..
Those he influenced ran the gamut..

I remember sitting next to Chick Corea watching him play, and on other night Cornrell West...and even Robert Plant!

Elvin is beyond Legend...and you had to be there to see and feel it as you know firsthand.

He was pure class.. and in a class of his own.

One thing is for sure...there will never be another Elvin..

Absolutely!

I only saw him the two days back to back, D.L.
I don't think he ever came back to the area again.

what I remember most about him was how hard he
swung the the music. His grooves were almost tribal-
hypnotic in nature. There seemed to be this Elvin zone
and once he was in it there was no turning back and you
just sat there in this kind of groove trance! He played in
such a way that it gave me the same feeling as a hard
2&4 groove but you know it wasn't. Very seated, very
solid!

Mr. Jones loved the drums! I remember reading an article
when after he became ill with heart disease, he would
practically if not literally have to be carried to his drum kit
on stage to perform.

He played and performed until he just absolutely and positively
couldn't do it any longer and then he died almost immediately
after. I honestly believe that he would have actually preferred
to have died sitting behind his drums!

Elvin is the stuff, Elvin is the man!

And speaking of the Simon lessons, the oposite/alternate hand
and foot triplet exercise was another mind twister. It looks simple
until you attempt it.

American Jazz, by nature seems to carry with it a religious context and spiritual experience, as well as the "tribal" kind of sound drummers spoke with, which is logical. I have seen the same things stated by people who watched Max, Tony, and others in concert in smaller settings. Very powerful experiences for them, like religious experiences, and I believe the music, itself lends to that experience for people.

Needless to say Simon Phillips would never allow himself to be placed in the same category as Elvin Jones. What living drummer would? No living drummer would ever place themselves on the same level as any of the icons in drumming history, even icons themselves. That's a matter of character and humility.

As in the Baker/Blakey thing, Ginger did not have the vocabulary or the chops, and per discussion elsewhere Art was able to shine on his 4 pc well past Baker on his big rig. Nonetheless, Baker is an icon himself. The whole African influence and tribal thing on his drumming had people saying if you were close to him as he played it was like a religious experience. So, after years of putting two and two together there seem to be variables that bring this type of comment out of observers.

But I have to maintain the observation I have that if Elvin Jones and Simon Phillips were on the same stage together, in their prime, Simon is going to do stuff that Elvin would not be able to respond to in kind. Of the many many vids there are of Elvin, regardless of not seeing him up close and personal, you still get the same view of him as any other drummer caught on film and what they do. Did anyone have to see Buddy up close to recognize what that man could do with a drum set? He had a left hand that seemed to function with its own brain. One need not sit behind him as he played to recognize that. If that is the necessity recordings mean nothing to show what a musician can play. If drumming is also entertainment, as all these festival, etc., "battles" conjure up, seriously, what is Elvin going to do to approach the things Simon would pull out? I'm just asking on a level of logic. Perfect double stroke rolls? Triplets? Everyone can close their eyes and hear Elvin and know who it is. As I said, probably THE most recognizable voice in the history of drumming. But what Blakey did to Baker, I do not believe Jones could do to Phillips. I'm just looking at it all from a general viewpoint of technique and moves and stuff. It is no disrespect to Elvin. What Elvin did to Ginger is not what Elvin would be able to do with Simon, imho. Saying you had to see Elvin live to appreciate his passion and power is not what playing on the same stage with other drummers in typical close-out the weekend "battles" reveal to people sitting in the last row of the building. They are seeing and hearing whatever fireworks shoot off. Mics and cameras do capture things people in the front row do not even see and hear. I just don't see Elvin having those fireworks with Simon all revved up.

I might add, given Elvin's obvious character and humility, he would say Simon, and many others playing today, were players of a mightier stature than him. Humility is not really what we are discussing. I'm just comparing apples to apples. Trying to, anyway. Sorry to utter blasphemy in the presence of those with great abiding respect for Elvin. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

At one time Buddy was IT for many. Drumming stopped with Buddy. But in reality, for speed, coordination, and all many drummers have come along who can match it all and surpass some of it. It's just reality. Even Buddy knew it before he passed away. Don mentioned Buddy was big band all the way and that is true, musically. I am looking at Elvin/Simon match-up, or any other for that matter, on simple terms of technique and showmanship.

Hi Asaph,

You make logical points, but Have you ever seen Elvin Live?
Something tells me you have not.

I cannot explain scientifically what I felt being in the same presence as a complete master like Elvin. It is intangible..
Sound is vibration, and when it is played with intent and spirit behind it- It causes something to change. I don't know what that is, but that's what happened when I was there.

Simon an Elvin are in 2 different categories.. Sure Simon could do more licks and stuff, but I know he couldn't do what Elvin did.
I have seen Simon play live as well, and I really like him, and have much respect for the time and commitment he's made to being a world class drummer, but He's just not anywhere near Elvin...at all...sorry.

I've also seen Buddy play live too..about 10 feet away.. He didn't come close either to what happened when Elvin played.

I cried when Elvin died..he was such a force of nature behind those drums. He really said somethng when he played...with his doubles and triplets..

No, I had never seen Elvin live. Nor Simon. I am making comments by virtue of film only. Same for Buddy. Same for Art and Ginger. And Tony and Max. Actually, the only major influences upon my own playing that I have seen live are Billy and Carl Palmer. I never saw the others. I just saw them on film or heard them on recordings.

I do understand what is being said about being in an audience where human force upon a musical instrument seems to transcend earth and enter another dimension or realm. Tony had that ability for people. I read it all the time. So did others, as I've said. This tells me that something touches the soul of the observer in a way that is quite powerful - for them. I don't know that such a thing can be measured by simple matters of technique. It really can't. That kind of connection goes beyond strokes of any kind. But it generally applies to just certain people, not necessarily all people. Some people sink into another realm listening to Mel Lewis just cushion his band. They just fixate on his ability to move the time and take control in simple ways.

I have a recording 'Gretsch night at Birdland' featuring Elvin, Art, Philly Joe, and Charli Persip. For me, Charli does some stuff that leaves the others behind. Just the way it all hits me as I listen. I can hear Elvin doing all his "isms" with the others doing theirs. Charli just does some very cool things. Amazing foot, especially thinking what drum pedals were as devices back then.

Those into Elvin might say he did things which could not be compared to. Same for Art and Philly Joe. Art was VERY powerful. Many loved Philly Joe to no end. Just the way players speck to each of us.

Yeah-,
It's not so much WHAT is being played, but HOW it's being played that matters at the end of the day.