My Thoughts on Fruit from the Loom

Finally downloaded the new album and have had a chance to drink it all in. It took an effort to get it because The Orchard was having problems with this particular download, and their servers were busy at the 5 new "stores" they've opened. Plus, there was no link at the Orchard site to download it. I let Billy know about it, and he rectified the situation thru the Orchard. They gave me an alternate place to purchase it - free from DRM's {more on that later} so I got it from Amazon.com for $8.99.

I had gone to a number of sites that were selling this download like Yahoo Music, Rhapshody, Spiral Frog, and I Tunes. Each one of these sites has different offers and in order to download the music you have to download their own special player/downloader. Then comes the issue of DRM's which has to do with the licensing of the downloads - I wasn't able to complete my download without making changes in my security settings in whats called the DRM folder. It gets involved, at least for me. So when the rep for the orchard told me about DRM free sites like Amazon, I said "that's for me". The other thing I noticed is that these Player/downloaders vary quite a bit in file size. The Amazon one is only 1.4 MB while the Yahoo Music one was around 38 MB ! That's a lot of space to take up .

The music was delivered as an mp3 at 56mps . The Mahavishnu downloads at Wolfgangs Vault were delivered at 256mps which is better sonically. MP3 is a compressed format as we know so it doesn't have quite the oomph of a regular CD, or CDA file. Billy told me he hopes that the record will come out on a hard disc someday when he gets the right deal, but for now this is how it is. Even though it's inexpensive at only $8.99 , I do miss the information booklet which normally accompanies a release. I wouldn't mind paying the extra. This seems to be the way things are going and I hope it puts some more green in the artists pocket this way but I'm not happy with it.

Of course the most important thing is the music itself and as usual Billy doesn't disappoint. There are re-workings of some of his classic tunes like Crosswinds, Spectrum, and the grammy nominated Zanzibar Breeze and a bunch of new pieces as well. My favorite so far among the new works is Cat in the Hat, though I do like the hypnotic interplay between Billy and the Okuta percussionists on the tune Thoughts from Okuta. Eggshells Still on My Head would work great on any smooth jazz station around, though the one here in NY - CD101.9, just switched format on their main station from smooth jazz to adult oriented rock while moving the smooth jazz to it's HD parallel channel. On the solo drum piece, Samba Du Militairstrasse I'm still trying to figure out if Billy did that with two sticks in each hand [which he often does as we all know], or if he double -tracked it. If you listen to it, you will hear what I'm talking about.

So I hope those of you who haven't purchased it will now try to do so. You can also get it free if you join certain sites. I don't really know how Billy can make any money from that, though. Hope I helped with any confusion, or maybe I've started more. Let's hear your thoughts ! Peace, TED

Ted, I'm commenting just on the technical stuff, not the music at this time. I think you're talking about having downloaded at 56 kbps, not mps. It's been said:

A 56 Kbps MP3 can sound as bad as an AM radio station in a 1966 VW Beetle car radio. And a 256 Kbps MP3 is indistinguishable from CD-audio.

Personally, I choose not to listen to ANY mp3 if I can avoid it . . . and for a Billy Cobham release to even be available as a 56 kbps download seems a travesty. I did take a listen to Crosswind in entirety as streamed on the website linked in the thread Don posted and found the sound quality acceptable, but obviously dulled. And I've compared sound quality of cd vs. the same tune on mp3 at 192 kbps and the difference to me was quite noticeable; especially the highs were sapped and the life (dynamics) taken out of the music. MP3s are to music what Ross Perot called a "giant sucking sound" in relation to job loss to Mexico under NAFTA. Young listeners relying on mp3 may never know what a hi-hat sounds like . . .

Regarding the music, I prefer the more organic Bilham sound as opposed to this new Crosswind take, i.e., I was never anywhere near as excited about the one Glass Menagerie release I own . . . it just smoothed-out the edges a bit too much for my taste . . . but I won't doubt Billy will get some smooth radio play and, therefore, interest in his catalog . . .

Personally, I choose not to listen to ANY mp3 if I can avoid it . . . and for a Billy Cobham release to even be available as a 56 kbps download seems a travesty.

I'm with you on this one Woofus.... I want to support Billy, but I don't know about this.... I thought the music would be coming out on a cd... This is actually disappointing news.

I'm gonna wait awhile and, as Billy says: "See what tomorrow brings."

Also, woof, I think you'd like the tune: "Cat in the hat". Billy sent me this cut some months ago via email. That tune is a bit more typical of today's "take no prisoners" Billy.

Don.

The art of mixing/mastering for the mp3 is upon us . . . it's even possible for an mp3 to improve a recording. I believe this is the case for some of the stuff I've recorded that may sound thin and are fattened-up by virtue of mp3.

Wait a moment, did I use the word virtue in the same sentence as mp3? Did Ted say he got an entire cd in 1.4mb?? Does Raggedy Ann have cotton tits?

I guess this could be Bill Cobhams 1st test of this Format.

Getting a Fair Distribution deal is harder than it was
10 years ago , for example.

Making your own CD's and selling them on your own
for a worldwide deal would need a safe site,
sadly Bill does not have that at this time.

Other than that
those that catch his gigs could buy the CD there.

_____________________________

Outtasight
Colin.

HI Keith,

I said the Downloader from Amazon.com only took up 1.4MB whereas the one from Yahoo took up 38 MB. I have removed the Yahoo one from my drive immediately. The album file is 110 MB.

As to mp3 "fattening" up a recording - that can be true with the sort of recordings you or I do which tend to have less than a dozen tracks, for arguments sake. It would be far better to just use a compressor on the finished tracks during mastering rather than expect the mp3 conversion to take care of it. Recordings with the density and amount of information which Billy makes do not benefit from mp3 conversion but rather lose definition and power. 256kbps is superior to the 56kbps download I paid for but it will not be as good as a hard disc CD. Billy knows that which is why he said he will be trying to eventually get the album out on disc.

AS for Raggedy Ann, at least they're natural. peace, TED

Hi Ted, could you elaborate a bit about the material and the musicians on this new release? Did you enjoy the music? Haven't downloaded the files yet, but will soon.

Kind regards,
Anders

Hi Anders,

Yes, I enjoyed the music. I did give a brief review in the beginning of this thread, but I don't want to review each cut. I'd rather leave that to the listener.

There are 11 tracks in total - Cat in the Hat, Zanzibar Breeze, Samba Du Militairstrasse, Crosswinds, Eggshells Still On My Head, Spectrum, Florianopolis, Thoughts From Okuta, Faia, Sweet Bocas and Clitter Clatter.

There are different musicians on each track but since I have no info with the disc, I've had to piece the musicians together from other articles and reviews. Here are some of them - Brian Auger, Dean Brown , Victor Bailey, Junior Gill, Dave Samuels, and the Okuta percussionists ,off the top of my head, but there are many more. Hope that helped a little. Peace, TED

Here's a quote from Billy that he posted on the Jazz Network about Crosswinds:

Crosswinds": The title tune of my 2nd album has been rearranged to feature a bass solo by Victor Bailey with the focus being the extraordinary rhythmic support of guitarist, Dean Brown, the powerful organ virtuosity of Brian Auger and the exceptional guitar solo of Jean-Marie Ecay along with added support from long time colleagues, Christophe Cravero - keyboards, Junior Gill - PanKat/Steel Pan, Marco Lobo – percussion and Stefan Rademacher - bass

Ted E. Bear wrote:HI Keith,

It would be far better to just use a compressor on the finished tracks during mastering rather than expect the mp3 conversion to take care of it.
peace, TED

Ted, I think you're missing the point here. Have you been eating Wire Nuts™? If I were to add compression during mastering and then convert to mp3, then sound would be duller still. The idea is to have the master in such condition that the mp3 conversion somehow enhances it. And I believe the optimal condition of the master would be on the tinny side . . . clarity is lost in mp3 regardless, but edges can be rounded.

Hi Keith,

I don't believe I'm missing the point. I agreed with you that an mp3 conversion might fatten up tracks such as you or I do, but for what Billy does, it would not work.

I did not say use a compressor, then convert to mp3 because that would make it very dull. I said INSTEAD . Rather than relying on the mp3 conversion to do the compressing. I would use the compressor, which gives me the flexibility to compress what I want and how much, then leave the file as a WAV, and go from there.

And no, I don't put wire nuts anywhere near my mouth because Scotch Locks , which are the 3M version of wire nuts and are what we use mostly, are coated with rat poison. That's done because the critters like to gnaw on them and have ruined splices that they managed to get at. Peace, TED

Oh my gosh, I didn't know about the rats and Scotch Locks . . . unfortunately, I do know about rats!

My only point really was that there is now an art surrounding mixing/mastering FOR the mp3 that is different from mixing for a cd.

Here's a discussion on the topic (and I never say topic):
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/29/music-producers-mixi.html

Producers also now alter the way they mix albums to compensate for the limitations of MP3 sound. "You have to be aware of how people will hear music, and pretty much everyone is listening to MP3," says producer Butch Vig, a member of Garbage and the producer of Nirvana's Never- mind. "Some of the effects get lost. So you sometimes have to over-exaggerate things." Other producers believe that intensely compressed CDs make for better MP3s, since the loudness of the music will compensate for the flatness of the digital format.

A lot of the stuff I've recorded was done using just one stereo condenser mic with lots of highs, so I've rationalized the mp3 conversion might make them more listenable to some ears, though I always prefer the original with more clarity and dynamics . . .

It's a bit distressng to read that producers will now be mixing for the mp3 format, though I understand the logic of doing that. It's similar to what used to be done when making a vinyl record. Because bass was the hardest thing to reproduce when cutting a vinyl record, the prevailing theory was to pump up the bass as much as possible on the 1/2 track master, which would be compensated for by the mechanical pressing of the vinyl itself. Having made 3 45's with my brother from our studio back in the 80's I can confirm that this indeed was true. The problem however, was figuring out just how much extra to pump the bass because too much would lead to distortion. We did our mastering at the legendary Sterling Sound here in NYC and the rates were not cheap. You would then take that 1/2 track master to the pressing plant and they would make a stamper out of it. From that you would press your records. You generally would make a few test pressings off the stamper and give them a listen to see if that's what you wanted. If not, then you had to go and repeat the process.

My question would be what happens now ? What exactly do we have to "over-exaggerate" now to get the right balance ? And what medium do we use for presentation of the song - will it be a 24 bit master at 256KBps ? Will the producers now have to create a separate master mix for mp3, a separate one in case they press a CD, One for DVD audio or SACD ? Seems like it could get awfully confusing.

Also just wondering how your mp3's sound to you ? You said you prefer the original tape with the highs. Peace, TED

Yeah, Ted, record companies can't even get the pictures and credits right sometimes . . . can you imagine the new Rolling Stones cd where they stamp the mp3 mix by mistake?

Ted E. Bear wrote:It's a bit distressng to read that producers will now be mixing for the mp3 format, though I understand the logic of doing that. It's similar to what used to be done when making a vinyl record. Because bass was the hardest thing to reproduce when cutting a vinyl record, the prevailing theory was to pump up the bass as much as possible on the 1/2 track master, which would be compensated for by the mechanical pressing of the vinyl itself. Having made 3 45's with my brother from our studio back in the 80's I can confirm that this indeed was true. The problem however, was figuring out just how much extra to pump the bass because too much would lead to distortion. We did our mastering at the legendary Sterling Sound here in NYC and the rates were not cheap. You would then take that 1/2 track master to the pressing plant and they would make a stamper out of it. From that you would press your records. You generally would make a few test pressings off the stamper and give them a listen to see if that's what you wanted. If not, then you had to go and repeat the process.

My question would be what happens now ? What exactly do we have to "over-exaggerate" now to get the right balance ? And what medium do we use for presentation of the song - will it be a 24 bit master at 256KBps ? Will the producers now have to create a separate master mix for mp3, a separate one in case they press a CD, One for DVD audio or SACD ? Seems like it could get awfully confusing.

Also just wondering how your mp3's sound to you ? You said you prefer the original tape with the highs. Peace, TED

As in anything, beauty is in the eyes (and ears now with audio) of the beholder Cuz.

As I and so many others have said before, the various configurations have their advantages depending upon who the "target" is and what information is being conveyed. You are correct in your fears though, since a large part of the market is not up on the latest gear, and that is probably why there are 'some' producers mixing projects for mpx (where "x" can be either '3', '4,' 'or more' down the road. My use of MP3 is limited only to conveying an idea and not the real thing. Yet there are those who are making big bucks off of that format alone. They are only going after the lowest common denominator among the fractions or extrpolations: and that for the bang in the buck!

My MP3s sound fine to me. Yet they probably suck to others, audio-wise. If I burn a CD, I always use the original WAV file and convert to CDA audio format where it can be played on any equipment out these days. Of course when employing the various formats that are proprietary to DAWs these days (whether MOTU or Digidesign), then the conversion issues seem to disappear when everyone on the production team is on the same page - AND until such time as mastering is essential toward final product. Essentially in the production mode, its important that file transfers have the least conversions until the "producers" encapsulate such into what will become a final release into the various configurations that are present these days.

I agree, it is confusing; and likely to become more so down the road. At least our ears are stil binaural, however schizophrenic industry standards may be...

I'm sure there's a lot more to what you are saying here Ted... interesting stuff and something that I'm not taken surprise by when coming from anyone. AND YES, when cassettes first came out, companies produced for ALL existing configurations (which at that time was vinyl, 8track and cassette); at least when I came on the scene. When CDs first came out, it took awhile for cassettes to disappear, though 8track had long bitten the dust (for me anyway). Yet vinly still exists today for those who love the analog signals. Now that we have the other configurations, it will take an astute marketer to determine the potential for sale as a function of the "configurations" now existing and the acuity of their (consumer's) ears. Go figure...

My hope is that along with Boomer, everyone works it out together! Simply because only with that agreement are "standards" achieved.

Still need to pick this one up, Billy has them for $25, good deal!