New Mahavishnu Orchestra LIVE

Head on over to Wolfgang's Vault, they have a few new live recordings of the
Mahavishnu Orchestra, celebrating their 40th anniversary.

Featured New Releases by Mahavishnu Orchestra:
In 1971, John McLaughlin assembled a musical juggernaut including Billy Cobham (drums), Jerry Goodman (violin), Jan Hammer (keys), and Rick Laird (bass), and called it Mahavishnu Orchestra. This formidable group blurred genres and pioneered Jazz-Fusion. Today we release two new concerts in commemoration of the band's 40th Anniversary. Welcome additions to any discerning music library, these 1973 shows find the band at its apex. Check back Friday as we release two more concerts from the same year.

Convocation Hall (Toronto, Ontario) - January 26, 1973
Civic Auditorium (Grand Rapids, MI) - August 11, 1973

Thank you for that, but did Billy sanction those yet ? Because I found some video of Mahavishnu at a New York college and I put it up and then I said I better ask, and I did. And Billy's exact words were, follow your heart Spanky, and I did' and took the video down. So from now on if I find something I will ask him first, because people have made money on stuff that Billy should have got paid for, and some of the stuff is of bad quality video and sound wise. And he just does not want it out there. Just thought that I would throw that out there, nothing more.

"Wolfgangs' Vault" comes off as another "Wounded Bird": another way to exploit behind a shell company............. I have not sanctioned anything. Thanks for checking with me.
Boomer

Daveonskins wrote:You might think that they would have to contact the artist before going ahead and making it available to the public..

Yeah you would think so Dave, but I think because of the internet it is easy to under mind people, and get unsanctioned stuff out there. I remember people going to town when Jimi died and put out bootleg after bootleg, the man was not in the ground a good month, and Jimi Hendrix and Lonnie Youngblood was out there. Billy is well known all over the planet, so they are going to try and under mind him too.They don't even wait until you die anymore, they do it in your face. They think that they don't have to ask you anything, and guess what" they won't. And with the invention of the internet, do I need to go any further.

It was most likely the sound company that recorded these shows back then.
Whoever had the masters of these tapes must have sold them over the years and eventually Wolfgang's Vault received permission to use them?
They seem like a legit company, the problem is someone in the Mahavishnu camp lost control of things and this has happened... many years later.

A fine example of control is what Robert Fripp has done with King Crimson live shows at the King Crimsom web site.
He made sure he had control over all live recordings from the early stages of the band in 1969 to the present and he owns all the master tapes.
He sells downloads of all early and recent shows from his official web site.
The artist gets the money and not a second or third party.

according to wolfgang's vault they had permission to record any shows they post before hand and therefore have rights. I'm just repeating what they had posted on their site. That back in the day it was commonplace to record with permission. they also claim to compensate the bands. i don't know what the truth is tripped out all groovy or far out man. it does all seem to be too good to be true. check out the prices of their posters and paraphernalia it's through the roof. i must admit the recordings they have of the MO are absolutely amazing. they have some Billyband stuff too. They say they compensate bands, has boomer received a check from them lately? As a consumer of music as well as a player i don't know what to think anymore. Seems like it would take lawyers and big money to do anything about the pirating that is happening today.

Here's the story on Wolfgang's Vault regarding the M.O. recordings. All these shows were recorded by Dinky Dawson , who was their sound man for these shows. He sold these recordings to Wolfgang's Vault.

Wolfgang's Vault does indeed have to pay the performers a % from the monies received from the sale of these recordings. Each of these %'s have been negotiated with the performers, or their representation beforehand.

Now, regarding the M.O> I do not know what the %, or the amount is that's being paid . I also do not know who this money is being paid to, but I feel certain the money is going to whoever is entitled to receive whatever royalties the band still receives from sales of their recordings. How things were left off after the band and the corporation were dissolved, I don't know.

If Boomer says he doesn't receive any money from these sales, I believe him. It would be nice if he did get something from these sales because he certainly deserves it. I don't think we're talking about a great deal of money here.

Did he receive any money for the Lost Trident Sessions ? I believe he did, but only he can speak to that. Sony has the live M. O. Live in Cleveland CD mastered and in the can for several years now but has not put it out. Why ? Because one or more of the band members has not signed off on its release . Why ? I don't know the factual answer to that , though I have heard rumors as you all have. So I will not speak to rumors here.

Sony would certainly not leave themselves open to a lawsuit and I'm sure Wolfgang's Vault would not do the same. They are worth too much money.

So to sum up, someone instead of Boomer is making some money off the Wolfgang releases. How much, who it is, and everything else regarding that is open to conjecture.


such is the business of music. I wish it was not this way.


Peace, TED

Everyone listen up:
I have not been consulted on the releases by Wolfgangs' Vault therefore I have NOT given that company my permission to release any product from Mahavishnu Orchestra that included my performance. The fact that Dinky Dawson may have provided this music for distribution is news to me as I did not know that he had any recording of the MO. So, this is another rip off yet again of myself and possibly other members of the original band. Anything else that has been said here that supports the proposition that I have signed off on any recording having to do with tapes recorded by agents other than those recordings distributed through CBS is pure B.S. and should be kept in perspective as such. Boomer (Bill Cobham)

boomer wrote:Everyone listen up:
I have not been consulted on the releases by Wolfgangs' Vault therefore I have NOT given that company my permission to release any product from Mahavishnu Orchestra that included my performance. The fact that Dinky Dawson may have provided this music for distribution is news to me as I did not know that he had any recording of the MO. So, this is another rip off yet again of myself and possibly other members of the original band. Anything else that has been said here that supports the proposition that I have signed off on any recording having to do with tapes recorded by agents other than those recordings distributed through CBS is pure B.S. and should be kept in perspective as such. Boomer (Bill Cobham)

Yes its a mess
this Dodgy online selling
and worse never paying the hard working artists.

I wish John Mclaughlin would post here as well.


________________________________

Outtasight
Colin.

Wow! That is interesting.
Thanks for your input Boomer, that is amazing that no one has been contacted concerning these
live show releases on Wolfgang's Vault. The next step would be to take some action on this?
If Wolfgang's Vault did little or no research on this and then take this guy's live recordings and sell them over
the internet, they should be held accountable.

Unfortunately, a lawyer who have to be hired to sort this out, which would take time and money.

That is the reason why I have learned to ask Billy first. There are many ripoff cats out there. Now just listen to what Bill said, he didn't even know about this Dinky Dawson stuff.

I wish I had known this before paying for the 2 MO shows I downloaded from Wolfgang's Vault. .... I believed them when, in the last paragraph of
http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/concerts/support/about-concert-vault.html
they say: "The Concert Vault is fully licensed by BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC, and we pay these performance rights organizations every time you listen to a concert. The license fees make their way back to the performers that made the music. Download revenues are also shared with performers and publishers as appropriate. One of our top priorities will always be to make sure that the artists are compensated for their performances."
I feel like I've been thoroughly and completely lied to.


My question for Boomer: If you go to
http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/billy-cobham
you will see 3 shows of yours that were recorded in 1978 at the Bottom Line in New York by the King Biscuit Flower Hour. .... They are not for sale, only for listening. .... Did you in any way sanction these?

---TConrad

What I remember from those days is that I was told that this was for a presentation on the King Biscuit Flower Hour and was told that the recording was for a one time only radio broadcast. This was in the late 1970's or early 1980's I believe so, I agree and get a copy of the recording I think. I am not expecting to connect with it in the 21st century but naivety wins out again. Contracts are made to be broken and generally people will dupe other people however and whenever they can get away with and then turn around and say "GET OVER IT!" until the proverbial tables are turned...............And the beat goes on.

Just to say it plainly,
This digital MP3 era sucks! Good for the consumer, but terrible for the artist..Anything can be converted..Cassette, Vinyl,
CD's... Live recordings...probably even 8 tracks!!...

Billy, I don't operate anywhere near your legendary level, but I've had some albums from a band I was in during the 90's
that after the demise, gained popularity in Europe and places like Greece (go figure)..

A couple of years ago I happened to stumble upon a pay per download website that was selling my album...
I contacted them, and told them the material was my property, and the music was copywritten, and got no response at all...So then I got a lawyer involved to try to get them to stop selling it...and they are still selling it!!...I really don't know what else I could do other than take a flight to Greece, with a baseball bat....The sad thing is, after finding that website, I kept researching, and found several others also selling my record...Not me, or anyone in that band was ever contacted, or recieved a penny since then...and this is from the 90's so I don't know how many copies were sold...
I'm sure we're not talking about hunderds of thousands of dollars here, but the point is, they are STEALING my property..

I personally buy all CD's in a store cause I know that the artist gets money from those purchases. Then I dump them into my computer, then my ipod.

It's just sad to know there's not much you can do...artists and music are being raped....
Don't mean to sound negative... I was going to keep this story to myself, but this topic hit a nerve with me..I can't believe a site like wolfgag..(misspelling intended) could get away with crap like this...

Wow Dave you saw your own stuff on the internet in Greece and there is nothing that you can do about it. That has to have you mad as hell.

Yeah Spanky,
It's definitely frustrating, knowing that someone is making money off of my former band..
If I just played on the record as a session, and had no involvement writing the music, I wouldn't care, but it 's just so wrong how people can get away with this..

The thing these thieves don't understand is it takes years of sacrifice and determination to get good at an instrument.
If I went to college for all the years I've been practicing, I'd be a super doctor or lawyer..getting paid..

My music is in a way, is my diploma, or masters degree....the fact is,...it happens as Billy stated..I am going to continue to consult my lawyer ( who is a drum student of mine) and try to come up with a solution to this robbery..
maybe I can stop it somehow...and if i can, I'll be sure to share it with everyone....I'm not holding my breath though..

D.L.

Dave, I feel your pain and your anger, and rightly so. It brought to mind an even worse scenario which happened to some friends of mine.

Back in the 80's I met some guys who were friends of my brother, who owns a recording studio here in NY. The name of the band was French Lick, after the town in Indiana where they were from. They were signed and did an original album of hard rock for Tony Bongiovi [ yes, Jon's cousin] at the Power Station, which he owned. For those who don't know, the Power Station was THE place to record at back then .

The album was really good and had at least 4 commercial "hit" singles on it, in my opinion. The album was shopped around but the guys could not get a deal because although they had the sound, they were not "pretty boys" like the other big hair bands at that time like Poison, or Cinderella, or Motley Crue or even Bon Jovi. And the record labels wanted the whole "package".

Anyway the album never got picked up by a label and the band eventually disbanded.

So how does this relate to Dave's story ? Well, it turns out that in the late 90's we found out that their album had been put out in Germany and was a hit among many metal fans. Not only was the album put out, the name of the group had been changed to Stone Soup !!!! Someone had taken their album and released it under another name. And just try and find out who did this. After you get thru the dummy distribution companies and all the dead ends that were left.

Stone Soup - some pretty good commercial rock songs. But it's really French Lick. It's probably on youtube. I will go check.

Dave, I wish you luck in your search brother !


I couldn't find them on youtube but here's a sample of their song " fighting the Good fight .

http://www.aor-fm.com/bands/145_stone_soup.aspx And the names of the band members are correct but the other "facts" put forth by this site are not. Trust me, I know.


Peace, TED

Wow Ted & Dave that is robbery to the max. And these people have bought new cars off of robbing people out of their music. Now with billy I would think that it would be hard to hide his music, anywhere in the world' or could they ?

Oh, Okay then, let's talk rip off!

Back in the 80's there were some musician friends of mine, a family that formed a
funk dance band called the Rojahs Brothers. These guys are really good friends of
mine and I have even worked with some of members on several occasions.

Well, they wrote a song called "Shake it down"... To make a long story short, they
were working with some producer who's name escapes me now, but dealing with this
cat, their song wound up on an album that you wouldn't guess in a million years who's
it was... Below is the link that will give you the answer. You will also be able to hear a
sample of the the tune. I would also encourage you to listen to the other samples on
the record just so you can hear the comical difference in styles. But you will be amazed
to find out what and who's album this tune wound up on.

The last link is the Rojahs' Facebook page as they are still together to this day, with
some different members.

The lead vocalist on the sample you will hear is Vern Davis. I played in his funk band
called "Super Sqweez" back in the mid to late 70's.

The love (greed for) of money is the the root of evil, gents.

http://www.amazon.com/Shake-It-Down/dp/B004EF3F0E

https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/rojasband

And here's the entire tune on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-X4rwcibVY

Thanks Guys...I don't feel so bad--hahaha

Yeah Ted, If my memory serves me correctly The Power Station is now called Avatar Studios...Unbelievable drum room in that place.

I guess everyone has a ripoff story...oh well...

I contacted a very reliable source, who happens to be a lawyer, and who is familiar with what's been going on with the Wolfgang Vault releases. Here is what I came away with:



Dinky Dawson's contract with CBS, and/or some artists, gave him ownership of the tapes he made in the course of his sound engineering duties. He did shows for many other bands besides the M. O. - The Byrds, Fleetwood Mac etc. All this is outlined in his book. This was not unusual for the time. There was no internet, no downloading, no hint of any type of market for these recordings past the traditional methods. Nowadays, contracts are radically different because there are many media outlets for an artist's product so the contracts try to cover as much as they can. Neither John McLaughlin, the MO or anyone associated with the original music or performances has any ownership of the tapes whatsoever or any say over what happens to them. WV certainly cannot make CDs or records, tapes etc. but there is no prohibition for downloads for the obvious reason nobody knew they would exist.



Having ownership and rights are two different things actually, but the bottom line is that there is nothing that prohibits Dawson from selling this material. It may not be moral, but currently there are no legal remedies because there is no jurisdiction. Boomer is right about the worth of contracts these days.



I also found out from another source that John McLaughlin attempted to block these recordings from being released by Wolfgang's Vault, but was unsuccessful. So now you know that both Boomer AND John McLaughlin are AGAINST these recordings being out there, as Boomer has stated. But they can't do anything about it.



Wolfgang's Vault also purchased the entire King Biscuit Flower Hour shows which were the radio broadcast of live concerts played many years ago. I imagine they are using the same ambiguity to get around opposition to releasing them.



All the Fillmore , Winterland, and Avalon shows were recorded by Bill Graham's organization, so they own all that, and all the memorabilia connected with those arenas and shows. (There are other shows too like Berkeley that Dinky had nothing to do with!)



Now as to how the artists are being paid for people streaming the shows for free , and for those buying the downloads - Royalties are being paid thru Ascap, BMI and SESAC to the artist who had the record contract and the Composer of the tune. However, the RATES at which they are being paid by Wolfgang's Vault are so ridiculously low, though they were forced by some recent law to raise them a bit, that the royalties amount to less than a few DOLLARS A YEAR , when all is said and done. The fact is the vast majority of people listen to the lesser quality free streams. That's really the biggest crime - young people today think music should be free.



Regretfully, TED

All I can say is wow. Don I went to that link and when I saw who it was, my jaw dropped

Man, I don't feel so bad after reading all this. Same with a band I was in, Legend. Bootlegs of the one album we did on ebay, Amazon, all over the web. My wife gets really ticked off. To me, oh well. Thirty years ago. I've written to these merchants, and the bootleggers. Doesn't do anything. I guess one can be a little thankful people actually want to listen to something you did three decades ago. It isn't even music I listen to anymore. I get communications from all over the world about this album. Freaks me out.

But, yes, the list of people making money off the work of others must be grown exponentially by now. One has to wonder if there is any integrity at all in the music BUSINESS. Motown artists totally ripped off, left penniless. Jazz artists. Rock bands promised thew world.

Sad. If you don't have big money for big lawyers there isn't much you can do.

are you Dave Whitley ?







Peace, TED