Mike Mangini

I just watched the clips, Pete... Great points...

Btw. Besides being a nice person, Virg is also
a great player.

Here's the link to Mike's Facebook media page https://www.facebook.com/MikeMangini

He posts there often, news and vid clips etc..

Pete, you did not diss me, but why are you trying to make me teary with that video? I believe Virgil (who I met in the audience at G3) has taken drumming far beyond anyone in the direction he has gone. He is truely one of a kind. A master.

DSlam,

Here's the thing- Mike Mangini complains about his previous job at Berklee and how being on the road is where he wants to be. If his dream was to be on the road all that time, why wasn't he? Meanwhile, Abe Jr's touring with McCartney, Dennis with Santana, Gadd with Clapton. I can conclude that Mike wouldn't have turned down any of those gigs based on what he said about touring, but gigs like that aren't offered to him (or Marco or Virg) Why is that? (Billy is the pionner, therfore relinquished)

I watched those vids and I admit that's the tastiest stuff I've seen Virg do. What's the deal with this grils crazy dancing though?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FOTx_h07sGM#t=803s
It makes my skin crawl.

I still think Virgil, Marco, Mike all sound stiff like drum machines.

I now refer you to this video-

Abe L can probably sing harmonies and play drums so that puts him in another ballpark. with D slam. As much as I find those drummers amazing I am in total agreement with rare and that is a matter of taste. i don't like 9/10ths of the music those guys play. it has some interesting things to chomp on and technically amazing. i just don't like the majority of it. it rarely ever swings, gets funky or moves me like an african groove or latin groove does. It's technical groove. For me personally It's stiff and nerdy. amazing but nerdy none the less. just like the grooves Royster plays, technically tight but not right in the thing Don always points out; it's not fully mature and integrated yet. It borders closely to areas of music I dig and touches on them from time to time but as a whole i have very little interest. On the other hand i am totally into ripping off any knowledge they have to share so keep those vids coming. what this stuff has is the ability to twist your thinking around for a minute and try something different and that is really all we can ask for. whether we choose to apply it or not it's good practice.
I do agree about Virgil. he's set apart and interests me much more than the other guys. what do we call them prog drummers? yeah that stuff can get annoying. play some jazz or funk fools!
It's all good as the saying goes but i only apply that to music. when i have time i will look at these videos tomorrow and tell you what i really think

Hi Rare, Kenny-

Mike stepped away from the touring scene for his own reason's , but one big one was that he wanted to start a family, and that was very important to him. Plus recently he had knee surgery that took a whole year to heal.

As for him complaining about Berklee...He never did. In fact, he was voted as the best instructor there. He did love his job , and made the most of it, teaching and connecting with people of all agaes, and instruments as well.

You most likley won't see him playing with George Clinton anytime soon, because that's not his thing. Metal is his thing, and he does it extremely well obviously. To compare any of these guys to each other is insane. Virgil, Marco, Abe Jr. etc are different PEOPLE. Drums don't play themselves, it takes a person to project a voice, or feeling.

Mike didn't just take any gig for a status thing because he stayed on the course he wanted to. He had a monsterous drum set, and mostly everyone told him it was too much, and he couldn't do what he wanted to as far as HIS expression towards what he felt as music. So, you really have to give the guy credit for sticking to his guns,,and i stress HIS.. not anyone elses.

In my last talk with him, he told me about how he would be on his living room floor totally distraught about his carrer and how difficult it was to remain himself throughout and find the right people to play with. And how many thousands of hours he practiced.

He's perfecting his own version of Art, and you have to appreciate the dedication, and originality in what he's really doing. Not to mention the inhuman executions he does with insane accuracy. It's easy to look at a video, with crappy sound, and say..yeah big deal,, but to see it done in front of you is another story all together. And even as ''mechanical'' as it sounds to you...well...go ahead and try it yourself. I have.. it's not easy.

Mike got the DT gig because he played it VERY well, but just as important, he got the gig because of the person he was.





I

Hahaha... Well, rare, I think I'd rather have my phone ringing.
You can't eat relinqushed. Neither does it keep a roof over your
head or the lights on. And if you're talking about the interview
Mike gave where he talked about being out playing rather than
at Berklee teaching, I didn't see that as a complaint at all. As he
himself said he was so busy helping and making the connection
with others that he wasn't being creative in his own playing from
a developmental platform. Personally, I believe he is the better
for his teaching experience and I think he knows that. But
he wants to play. And obviously, the time is now right.

Why don't they get the session calls? Well, c'mon, rare,
look at the people you named as examples... That's no
more their genra than what they do is Santana's, McCartney's
or Clapton's When you see any of those guys getting calls to play
metal or progressive rock, please let me know.

As to your conclusion of these guys playing like stiff drum machines...
Hey if that's what you hear, then that's what you hear. No one can
tell you how to interpret what you've observed.

As to Tina's dancing, what can I say? That's Tina.

what do we call them prog drummers? yeah that stuff can get annoying. play some jazz or funk fools!

Hi, Kenny,

Playing what you and I play, I can understand your position.
I also understand that our personal preferences are what
they are and that's the way it is... So, that being said, we
can actually flip what you said above and look at it from a
different and very likely possible point of view:

what do we call them jazz or funk drummers? yeah that stuff can get annoying. plays some prog fools!

To each his own.

Rare-bud,

I know Don and I are receiving you
loud and clear on that note. Truly.



It's what they're doing, is all. That's
what they are digging and since it
is what everyone is hearing them do,
they are getting the calls for THAT.

I saw Virg play a gig that Dennis was
playing, too and they both did right.
Virg doesn't do that kind of thing
much and likely, that is the reason
he doesn't get those calls.

There is no pocket like Gadd's and
yes, I prefer that but there is a place
for Billy's accentuating command,
Dennis' highway-surgery, Mangini's
circus and Virgil's Dali-esque creations.



Regards,

Pete,

I have never bought, and probably will never, ever buy
at D.T. album as the music is not something that appeals
to me on a personal level. But that makes these players
no less legit in my book.

I understand the difference between not liking something
because it's done poorly and not liking it because it's simply
not your taste.

You cannot dislike something while at the same time appreciate
a resulting effort when it's done poorly.

But you can dislike a thing that doesn't appeal to you persnally,
yet appreciate the quality and skill level it took to create it.

No need to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Oh, and rare, that video clip you put up was funky, bumpin!
I feel you!!! But again, that's what you and I like and in all
honesty it has no bearing beyond personal preference on
what the prog cats are doing.... Kickin groove though!

Love it!

Absolutely, D!

Daveonskins,

Mike says in this interview he was thinking about leaving Berklee for a few years. So he was happy enough where he was that he wanted to leave? He also says Dennis told him to 'say yes to everything.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sUJdpeIhjmU#t=627s

I don't knock metal and I never said playing "mechanical" was easy. I love metal and I just said Mike and guys like him sound stiff to me. I've heard quite a few metal drummers that don't sound stiff. The first one that comes to mind is Bonham. If anyone one of those guys can play with his kind of feel please show me?Anyways, I'm glad to hear Mike overcame the problem with his knee.

D,

You know who can and does play all those styles? Vinnie Colaiuta and he does it all authentically. So it can be done.

That Dennis vid is an example of what I consider playing with a lot of feeling, not just a lot of notes...but he does that too.

All this prog stuff has roots with what Billy had already done long before anyone. He's the Jedi Master in my mind. He's got the love and respect, but like you said you can't eat relinquished.

Pete,

I know Virgil took the place of Dennis in CAB when Dennis was touring? Hmmm...why isn't Virgil getting the calls for the big name acts?

You have seen him play. Rather
high-profile, wouldn't you say? It
is hard to hide him in the closet.

With CAB, he proved to me that he
could do whatever any situation
called for. It's all about what he
is doing at the time and what he
is deciding to work on.

When you ask why isn't he called,
you are making it sound like it is
because there is something wrong
with what he is doing and that
being called is the measure to
being a decent drummer. How
many times was Tony called?

I think that this is the case where
a drummer is just walking to a
different beat. He's doing his own
thing. Even inside his genre, he
is not looked at with total accept-
ance - as in Planet X's Moonbabies,
which many (in the genre) thought
there was too much jazz influence.

It really just doesn't matter. I am
satisfied, with what he has done
for drums and me, as Billy satisfied
me and as Steve and Tony did for
me and others.

You bring up Bonham. There is
no comparison. They are not of
the same genre. There is/was a
lot of R&B inside of Bonham.

It's all good.

Regards,

Hi Rare,

Mike just wanted to perform again, so that's the main reason why he had left. He loved Berklee and all the close relationships he had with his students. BUT he's a performer.

I wouldn't really put Bonham in the same bracket as any of these guys (mike,virgil, vinnie,etc) and I do understand what you mean about the stiffness thing, that's cool--Bonham was more R+B influenced for sure.

Pete, You're right Gadd is the King..of course I know that haha-

These guys are Playing Metal in a really smart and challenging way, and i appreciate them all. Of course I'm partial to Mike because I studied with him- He's great at what he does--That's the only point I'm trying to make here.
There's no need to compare...

Now, I would love to see a REAL jazz drummer start a metal band..Tony was thinking in that direction before he passed, and I can only imagine how that would have changed things.

I agree with Pete and D.L. Bonham was not what
I'd consider a "metal" drummer. I'd call it "Heavy Rock."
Heavy on the backbeat, R&B funky. That was Bonham.

Vinnie can play it and he can get the feel across for sure
but the guys that do this for a living will blow him out of the
water in that genra. Vinnie would not be among the first called.
There ane MANY more better players from that ilk who could do
the job.

Again I don't agree with your "stiff" term, but again, that's the way
you see it, then so be it.

In essence this is what you're saying, rare:

Why aren't these guys getting calls to play the music you like?
I have to ask myself how fair is that question, really?!
The've chosen a different path. That's like asking why aren't guys
like Dennis, Gadd, Vinnie, etc. getting calls to do metal sessions.

As Pete has pointed out already, Tony wasn't getting calls for the
mainstream popular genras, and neither is Billy, Lenny, and many
other of these great drummers who are quite capable of doing it. The
question seems to imply that their status as great players is not valid
because they're not being called by the big money, high profile, popular,
"stars", and I think that way of thinking is unfair and unfortunate.

If you look back at the 80's into the early 90's, you'd find that Gadd
pretty much had a lock on the session curcuit.... EVERYBODY wanted
Steve Gadd. For a good while, a lot of great players that were getting
session calls, stopped getting them because to him. He was getting calls
to the point that he totally burned out.... Doing drugs to try to keep up
with the heavy demands that were upon him... That's how much work he
was getting! So should all those other iconic player's abilities be questioned
because of this?!... "But can they play jazz, pop, etc.?" So what if they can't?!!
C'mon, rare!

I like many things across the board, some more than others. Yet, the ones
I like more does not discount or take away from the others any more so. it's
all valid... Like Pete said, "It's all good."

I think you guys are wrong about metal and Bonham. All metal's roots are heavily in the blues. You can trace it back. It has progressed to where it is today with all the different flavors, but the blues roots are still there. It's mostly in the guitar, what was an accompaniment instrument in jazz and then somehow became the focal point in metal with more distortion and the mid range dropped out. It's true that the guitar tone in LZ was bluesier then metal of today, but some of those LZ songs you can hear modern day metal sounding distortion. Bonham was a key innovator of the metal drum sound. The guy even lined his bass drum with metal.

As far as these guys not getting the high-paying calls, it's not a matter of who's better. Say you are a guy who can juggle chainsaws. Actually, you're the best chainsaw juggler that ever lived, ranked #1, hands down for all time. That's all great and everything, but if you're gonna make a career out of just being a chainsaw juggler you might find you're losing gigs to the guy who can spin plates on the end of a stick, can also ride a unicycle with a bowling pin balanced on his nose, can breath fire 50 ft. across the room, can make baloon animals, and who can also juggle chainsaws though chainsaws aren't his main gig. He even could be 15 on the top call list of chainsaw jugglers, #8 on the list of fire breathers, etc.. yet he gets the highest paying circus gigs. So my point is who's working the most and who's not? A really great drummer in my opinion should be able to play all styles. Drumming is an art, but don't deny it's not also a business.

Speaking of Gadd, I think Suss does a fantastic Gadd. This is top notch-

http://soundcloud.com/tonyomalley/man-made-laws-with-count-in?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Ftonyomalley%2Fman-made-laws-with-count-in


Daveonskins,

It must be a true honor to be a student of Mike and certainly something to be proud of.

Rare,

I resonate too much with you to
dampen it by disagreeing any
more. I appreciate what you are
saying. Truly.

I love Bonham, btw. An important
player and you know it was Gadd
that made me appreciate him.

And that Suss kicks ass. That is
just another example of his artful
command of time through dynamics
and kick.

Regards,

Haha~~~!!

OK- I could go on and on..But I won't..haha- far too many variables for me to spend time on...

Gonna go practice.--Peace-

P.S. Suss Rules

Hey, rare, you know me.... I'll take another shot!

All metal's roots are heavily in the blues. You can trace it back.

Metal and progressive rock is rooted more in and influenced by classical music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSjrNtz7j8&feature=related

Jordan Rudess, the keyboard player for D.T. has a strong classical background.
and you can definately hear that in the compositions.

Now, jazz is rooted in the blues which is rooted in gospel, which is in turn rooted
in old negro spirituals. But That does not mean that a blues player can play jazz
or vise versa.

A really great drummer in my opinion should be able to play all styles. Drumming is an art, but don't deny it's not also a business.

In regards to this and the rest of what you wrote previously concerning the Juggler,
fire breather, uni-cycler, etc. These are great points. But I think it's the the example
that prompted Pete's question concerning Tony. Is he not multi versed in his craft, along
with many others who AREN'T getting the session calls? So if this is the method by which
we measure "great" players, then I can boldy say that most of those whom we listen to and
admire are not great at all.

We must not forget that music can be and is broken up into genras. We pick our battles.
Give credit where it's due. Should Buddy Rich not be considered a legendary player because
he decided to specialize rather than generalize? Should a person be considered less than a
great MUSICIAN based on the fact that he or she plays only one instrument or one style
of music?

Like Dave said, there are many variables. And when we ask questions that go this deep,
we should consider as many of those variables as possible before drawing a conclusion.

Uncle John is among the most musical drummers I've heard. And in contrast, there ain't
that many. Like S.G. John has a way of morphing his ability to the music, becoming part
of the musical signature rather than putting "HIS" signature on it. Few, VERY few can do
this.

Metal and progressive rock is rooted more in and influenced by classical music. not sure i agree with that although definitely has that influence. I think the point was metal came out of hard rock that came out of experimenting on the blues vocabulary and expanding it. i don't know that metal and prog can be lumped into a category together. With LZ celtic folk was an influence with some others i'm sure. While black sabbath's drummer had some jazz chops in his bag too.

This comparing conversation is kind of silly. Comparing musicians is a slippery slope at best. Often versatility can lead to mediocrity. But it can also lead to greatness as in sharing music on a wider scope, that's great too. Also by rating people on their merits; statistically is folly. There are musicians that transcend boundaries but that doesn't mean everyone has to, to be great. Many musicians changed the face of music forever having never read a note in their life. i'm sure we can name some examples but Earl Scruggs and jimi Hendrix come to mind. What does that say about music? I'm not sure but it is something that can't always be pigeonholed into black dots.

I respect Mangini for teaching. To me that is as honorable as anything else he could achieve. This conversation reminds me of a time an American sitar player cited his guru in the fact that he stayed in his village and taught while Ravi Shankar was out playing internationally. Well i got a little upset with him for dissing Shankar (who obviously had done alot to bring Indian classical music to the rest of the world) but his point was made. It's honorable to keep a tradition alive and it can be honorable to take it out of it's boundaries as well. Both have their place in the grand scheme of things.

What were we talking about again ? oh yeah steve gadd! Why does he always come up in conversation like he invented drumming or something?
he always takes the credit I hate listening to Frank Sinatra!! but i would take the gig if i had the offer!!

You bring up some very good points, Kenny, but your statement
about versatility can often lead to mediocracy can quickly be taken
the wrong way. The jack of all trades, master of none approach can
definately cause this. But will open waves of creativity if you're gifted
with this attribute. ie Stevie Wonder.

I personally believe that the lines played in metal are more rooted in
classical music than in blues and jazz. You can definately hear the
classical influence in Dream Theater's music for sure. At least I can.

I do agree with you that you can't lump Metal and Progressive rock in the
same catagory. I would not consider D.T. to be a metal band though I think
somwhere along the line the roots are cousins that are not all that distant.

As long as we're not arguing and hurling insults at one another I fail to understand
why this sort of comparison interaction should be considered silly. To me it's no more
than analyzing a particular subject matter with someone else. I personally find this to
be helpful and healthy. What I find to be the opposite of that is when I read comments
like "play some jazz or funk." As if anything outside our realm of lkes and dislikes has no
validity as a rule.

Yeah, that Gadd guy is really starting to get on my nerves also!

I don't think Id take a gig with Frank Sinatra, him being dead and all.

Yeah! That Gadd guy!!

I am fed up with him sounding
the same, all the time!

D. Slam wrote:You bring up some very good points, Kenny, but your statement
about versatility can often lead to mediocracy can quickly be taken
the wrong way. The jack of all trades, master of none approach can
definately cause this. But will open waves of creativity if you're gifted
with this attribute. ie Stevie Wonder.

When i think of versatility vs creativity i'm thinking the dilemma of a person like myself. i play balkan music, west african, klezmer, rock, jazz and celtic music on a regular basis. But i can only study so much at a time. I've been studying balkan music mostly and as a result i'm not getting any better at african rhythms right now. When i hang out and play with my senegalese friends i am out of the loop because that music has such complex composition in it i can't keep up unless i devote serious time to working with them. So my point is; there is so much to learn in a given field that it's hard to really improve on all fronts as opposed to focusing on a style or field of interest and working on that. And yes it all helps me improve on my timing and creativity on other levels but mostly it focuses my study. That one particular area of dance music will grow which is hugely diverse to begin with; the entire balkan peninsula from the aegean sea to the black sea. i allow myself to be infused with traditional music with the end result having more knowledge in a given field. So when i go to a balkan dance party and i hear a beranche I know what it is. Sure i can take those rhythms out of context and play it in a jazz setting and see what happens as experimentation.

When you mention stevie wonder i think of a person who studied and played within a certain framework of blues, jazz r&B with such raw talent and ferocious creativity that his end results are completely original sounding to him. i don't think of him so much as all over the map versatile as just a straight up amazingly original one of a kind. A pioneer and innovator, who became totally original from working within his chosen genre R&B . that's how i see it anyway. like when you told us how you were playing along with certain recordings that made you sweat and improve that is the focus i am talking about.

I gotcha, Kenny... Keep pluggin, bud.

Re: Mike Manigini Drum Solo (complete) – Oporto 2011

First, and get to get it out of the way, I want to thank folks for their kind comments regarding my approach to music and the techniques deployed to support this art form from a drummer’s perspective. When seeing the referenced You Tube video, I found myself technically analyzing what was going on musically. Since it is a solo, I can’t say anything more than it was a solo: lots of theatrics yet not really anything that those who have the skill level and gear cannot achieve themselves. This is certainly not to detract from the “show time” with Mike Manigini.

With that said, I believe it’s important for any musician to understand the various genres, idioms and styles within an artful expression. Even the English language has so many nuances and dialects that it depends on the part/area of English speaking countries a communication is being heard to really understand what’s being said. The reason for this is that even within sovereign countries there are indigenous cultures well beyond the nationals being born there. A perfect example is that southerners can easily be distinguished by their spoken accents (no pun intended) from those in New England. As folks moved out west (historically speaking), new accents were acquired.

It’s the same with music – or any discipline for that matter. These days, it has become even more difficult to determine where a person was born. When I was living in England, I naturally picked up a variety of expressions – to the point when I returned to NYC back in 1977 after my stint with Kokomo, folks in NYC laughed at me… I could “swing” between any Scottish, Liverpool or Cockney accent. Germans tell me I have no accent at all when speaking their language. This is all acquired behavior and it comes naturally when someone invests themselves in the process – after all we’re all alive and it comes naturally - unless the person exposed to the environment becomes stubborn and xenophobic.

The only signature I have is when I sign my name to a document. Musically, I do morph between one genre, idiom and style. Some nuances can be attributed to me, however mostly I just play what the music requires. It doesn’t matter if a well written chart is put in front of me or I scratch out my own with some players who simply want me to hear what they are doing. My role as a drummer is to support what the entire production (and Artist) is trying to express. Other than that, I’m just making noise and should have what Mike Mangini has to sparkle when a solo is provided. I’d be evicted from my complex if I tried to set up and actually play what this very fine drummer has show. Spectacular for sure – I’d be the spectre of my neighborhood with some music accompanying the performance.

I simply borrowed Steve Gadd’s lick from Paul Simon’s “Fifty Ways to Lose a Lover.” My motivation was to push this blue eyed soul band from England toward a different vista on a very important song. The importance of the song was the lyrics – “Man Made Law… just a splinter in the finger of Mother Nature.” At first the technocrats behind their console at Columbia Records off of Tottenham Court Road couldn’t figure out what the heck I was doing. Their criticism was that all they wanted was a simple groove. I rebuffed them by saying this isn’t a “simple” song – besides, we’re the Group and you are audio engineers! Alan Spenner (bass, RIP), came over to me and said he liked that. Frank Collins, who wrote the song, came over to me and shared his enthusiasm as well – simply because at critical points that Gaddish groove synchronized with the hook and chorus. Once everyone in Kokomo (the group) were on the same page, this DEMO that didn’t make it to a commercial release found solidness through the music made by teamwork, and not simply one person either copying another or anyone trying to shine out individually.

There are times when solos are granted! If so, then play your heart out. Otherwise just support the melodic progressions – and certainly dynamically. Thanks again guys. I respect every bit of music any of you have in your heart or are driven by. Here’s the link transcribed from what I sent via SoundCloud.com and presented earlier.

Keep stickin!

http://www.johnsussewell.com/ManMadeLaw-SussWKokomo1976.mp3

[never released since our manager (Steve O’Rourke and Pink Floyd) decided he couldn’t understand what Kokomo was all about and left management status! Columbia Records International did not keep their agreement for the next album.] They exercised their option to renege. Oh well!

For technical reasons there's no need to get into now other than my mp3 lost the stereophonic qualities, the best link comes directly from Soundcloud.com for the tune "Man Made Law." My point is that it's okay to borrow from what each of us are influenced by. I'm influenced by many fine musicians - yet I'm old enough not to be impressionable except when its warranted.

http://soundcloud.com/tonyomalley/man-made-laws-with-count-in?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Ftonyomalley%2Fman-made-laws-with-count-in

Hear the lyrics rather than my drumming. I was DRIVEN by the song and not my desire to shine.

Honestly, I'm smiling Guys! Thanks again my friends.