Mike Mangini

Yeah! That Gadd guy!!

I am fed up with him sounding
the same, all the time!

D. Slam wrote:You bring up some very good points, Kenny, but your statement
about versatility can often lead to mediocracy can quickly be taken
the wrong way. The jack of all trades, master of none approach can
definately cause this. But will open waves of creativity if you're gifted
with this attribute. ie Stevie Wonder.

When i think of versatility vs creativity i'm thinking the dilemma of a person like myself. i play balkan music, west african, klezmer, rock, jazz and celtic music on a regular basis. But i can only study so much at a time. I've been studying balkan music mostly and as a result i'm not getting any better at african rhythms right now. When i hang out and play with my senegalese friends i am out of the loop because that music has such complex composition in it i can't keep up unless i devote serious time to working with them. So my point is; there is so much to learn in a given field that it's hard to really improve on all fronts as opposed to focusing on a style or field of interest and working on that. And yes it all helps me improve on my timing and creativity on other levels but mostly it focuses my study. That one particular area of dance music will grow which is hugely diverse to begin with; the entire balkan peninsula from the aegean sea to the black sea. i allow myself to be infused with traditional music with the end result having more knowledge in a given field. So when i go to a balkan dance party and i hear a beranche I know what it is. Sure i can take those rhythms out of context and play it in a jazz setting and see what happens as experimentation.

When you mention stevie wonder i think of a person who studied and played within a certain framework of blues, jazz r&B with such raw talent and ferocious creativity that his end results are completely original sounding to him. i don't think of him so much as all over the map versatile as just a straight up amazingly original one of a kind. A pioneer and innovator, who became totally original from working within his chosen genre R&B . that's how i see it anyway. like when you told us how you were playing along with certain recordings that made you sweat and improve that is the focus i am talking about.

I gotcha, Kenny... Keep pluggin, bud.

Re: Mike Manigini Drum Solo (complete) – Oporto 2011

First, and get to get it out of the way, I want to thank folks for their kind comments regarding my approach to music and the techniques deployed to support this art form from a drummer’s perspective. When seeing the referenced You Tube video, I found myself technically analyzing what was going on musically. Since it is a solo, I can’t say anything more than it was a solo: lots of theatrics yet not really anything that those who have the skill level and gear cannot achieve themselves. This is certainly not to detract from the “show time” with Mike Manigini.

With that said, I believe it’s important for any musician to understand the various genres, idioms and styles within an artful expression. Even the English language has so many nuances and dialects that it depends on the part/area of English speaking countries a communication is being heard to really understand what’s being said. The reason for this is that even within sovereign countries there are indigenous cultures well beyond the nationals being born there. A perfect example is that southerners can easily be distinguished by their spoken accents (no pun intended) from those in New England. As folks moved out west (historically speaking), new accents were acquired.

It’s the same with music – or any discipline for that matter. These days, it has become even more difficult to determine where a person was born. When I was living in England, I naturally picked up a variety of expressions – to the point when I returned to NYC back in 1977 after my stint with Kokomo, folks in NYC laughed at me… I could “swing” between any Scottish, Liverpool or Cockney accent. Germans tell me I have no accent at all when speaking their language. This is all acquired behavior and it comes naturally when someone invests themselves in the process – after all we’re all alive and it comes naturally - unless the person exposed to the environment becomes stubborn and xenophobic.

The only signature I have is when I sign my name to a document. Musically, I do morph between one genre, idiom and style. Some nuances can be attributed to me, however mostly I just play what the music requires. It doesn’t matter if a well written chart is put in front of me or I scratch out my own with some players who simply want me to hear what they are doing. My role as a drummer is to support what the entire production (and Artist) is trying to express. Other than that, I’m just making noise and should have what Mike Mangini has to sparkle when a solo is provided. I’d be evicted from my complex if I tried to set up and actually play what this very fine drummer has show. Spectacular for sure – I’d be the spectre of my neighborhood with some music accompanying the performance.

I simply borrowed Steve Gadd’s lick from Paul Simon’s “Fifty Ways to Lose a Lover.” My motivation was to push this blue eyed soul band from England toward a different vista on a very important song. The importance of the song was the lyrics – “Man Made Law… just a splinter in the finger of Mother Nature.” At first the technocrats behind their console at Columbia Records off of Tottenham Court Road couldn’t figure out what the heck I was doing. Their criticism was that all they wanted was a simple groove. I rebuffed them by saying this isn’t a “simple” song – besides, we’re the Group and you are audio engineers! Alan Spenner (bass, RIP), came over to me and said he liked that. Frank Collins, who wrote the song, came over to me and shared his enthusiasm as well – simply because at critical points that Gaddish groove synchronized with the hook and chorus. Once everyone in Kokomo (the group) were on the same page, this DEMO that didn’t make it to a commercial release found solidness through the music made by teamwork, and not simply one person either copying another or anyone trying to shine out individually.

There are times when solos are granted! If so, then play your heart out. Otherwise just support the melodic progressions – and certainly dynamically. Thanks again guys. I respect every bit of music any of you have in your heart or are driven by. Here’s the link transcribed from what I sent via SoundCloud.com and presented earlier.

Keep stickin!

http://www.johnsussewell.com/ManMadeLaw-SussWKokomo1976.mp3

[never released since our manager (Steve O’Rourke and Pink Floyd) decided he couldn’t understand what Kokomo was all about and left management status! Columbia Records International did not keep their agreement for the next album.] They exercised their option to renege. Oh well!

For technical reasons there's no need to get into now other than my mp3 lost the stereophonic qualities, the best link comes directly from Soundcloud.com for the tune "Man Made Law." My point is that it's okay to borrow from what each of us are influenced by. I'm influenced by many fine musicians - yet I'm old enough not to be impressionable except when its warranted.

http://soundcloud.com/tonyomalley/man-made-laws-with-count-in?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=http%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Ftonyomalley%2Fman-made-laws-with-count-in

Hear the lyrics rather than my drumming. I was DRIVEN by the song and not my desire to shine.

Honestly, I'm smiling Guys! Thanks again my friends.

Re: http://www.johnsussewell.com/BrazilianRestitution-NeilNickDennisNorbert&SussCollaboration1980-2003.mp3

It is my firm belief that by studying what everybody does, we learn in the process. Though I played orchestral drums and rock music before meeting Billy Cobham personally (and that while still in college), meeting Boomer changed my life. But you Guys & Gals already know that story.

Someone said earlier that I don’t put my “signature” on any particular music. Well, I understand while politely differing. As far as I know, I’m the first drummer to “sign” the cymbal flame and recording it on well distributed commercial music. Like so many so-called “new” techniques when first heard, other folks will look at you and say “what was that?” Yet when realizing a beat wasn’t dropped, it was merely moving the music forward by another texture than technique. In other words, it was/is producing another sound augmenting the music rather than detracting from it. They’ll [the detractors and wall flowers will] get use to it… don’t let anyone steal what you hear and embrace in your heart as a Dream. You’ll hear this technique here with music appropriate to this website. I first recorded it with Donny Hathaway back in 1973 – LIVE. Donny loved it. Since then, I’ve learned to use it gingerly – especially with ballads.

What I also remember well before Pete Corona decided to put up this surrogate site, the original website had a forum very similar to this. For me, this was back in 2002. Somewhere in 2003 someone in this community offered the opportunity to collaborate on music and dedicate a tribute to Billy Cobham by our contributions to his musical life and his inspiration to us all. I believe I’m the only one to follow through with that dedication and with evidence and others who are members today. If I’m wrong, I apologize.

My collaboration was with Neil Loughran – also known as “Spin.” So that you know, Neil/Spin earned his Doctorate and moved away from England to Sweden.

Then somewhere in this mix of years and musical influences, I was sent a track by Dennis Bell in New York City. Just before I moved south with the woman I’d wind up spending 20 years with, I recorded this tune dubbed “Mars Aflame.” My dear friend Norbert Sloley is on bass, Dennis on keyboards and the late Nick Brignola on all reed instruments.

The above referenced track is the segue of both collaborations.

My point is to record your endeavors – because unless you don’t, there will be someone else trying to rewrite your history. I still “kick,” yet somehow I find pleasure in playing simply rather than fan-faring for show. Yep, I can do that “show!” [Carnival Cruise line through Jonathan Crispo turned me down back in 2006 because I auditioned over a doggone phone line with a full acoustic set – PHONE LINE AUDTION?], but then in my experience I’ve found that unless properly rehearsed, the other musicians on stage forget where the ONE is – and I’m the one keeping musical time!

Isn’t it like that in Life when so many forget whom another is and comparing each other by each other? This is not wise.

Just do what you do and enjoy it. Thank you all for your encouragements to anyone.

So where is that collaboration we were wanting to do many years ago in tribute to Billy Cobham. I know who my Father is – and it isn’t Boomer, with all respect to Billy.

http://www.johnsussewell.com/ToReconcile-SussWrittenAtKeyboards&AugustusMorrisWithTheLyrics.mp3

This is for Pete Corona & Don Thomas, et. al. You know who you are.

I love you. Oops, Santa is a lie. Merry Christmas. Oops, Christmas is a lie.

I live for the Son, and not the Sun

Kick my ass, John!! Shi-!!

I forgot about Neil. I hope he
is well. Cooool!

This is all acquired behavior and it comes naturally when someone invests themselves in the process – after all we’re all alive and it comes naturally - unless the person exposed to the environment becomes stubborn and xenophobic.

My role as a drummer is to support what the entire production (and Artist) is trying to express. Other than that, I’m just making noise and should have what Mike Mangini has to sparkle when a solo is provided.

Very well said, Uncle.

I simply borrowed Steve Gadd’s lick from Paul Simon’s “Fifty Ways to Lose a Lover.”

Interesting Unc. being that the 50 ways pattern is more military rudimental in nature, I thought
you might have gotten it from Grover Washington Jr.'s "The sea lion from the "Feel so good" album.
The pattern is very similar while being much less rudimental traditionally speaking.

I could only find a 30 second clip of the tune and the drum groove can be heard in the last
10 seconds or so of the clip. Click on the link below and then click on "Preview this track".

http://www.last.fm/music/Grover+Washington,+Jr./_/The+Sea+Lion

D. Slam wrote:Hey, rare, you know me.... I'll take another shot!

All metal's roots are heavily in the blues. You can trace it back.

Metal and progressive rock is rooted more in and influenced by classical music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSjrNtz7j8&feature=related

Jordan Rudess, the keyboard player for D.T. has a strong classical background.
and you can definately hear that in the compositions.

Now, jazz is rooted in the blues which is rooted in gospel, which is in turn rooted
in old negro spirituals. But That does not mean that a blues player can play jazz
or vise versa.

A really great drummer in my opinion should be able to play all styles. Drumming is an art, but don't deny it's not also a business.

In regards to this and the rest of what you wrote previously concerning the Juggler,
fire breather, uni-cycler, etc. These are great points. But I think it's the the example
that prompted Pete's question concerning Tony. Is he not multi versed in his craft, along
with many others who AREN'T getting the session calls? So if this is the method by which
we measure "great" players, then I can boldy say that most of those whom we listen to and
admire are not great at all.

We must not forget that music can be and is broken up into genras. We pick our battles.
Give credit where it's due. Should Buddy Rich not be considered a legendary player because
he decided to specialize rather than generalize? Should a person be considered less than a
great MUSICIAN based on the fact that he or she plays only one instrument or one style
of music?

Like Dave said, there are many variables. And when we ask questions that go this deep,
we should consider as many of those variables as possible before drawing a conclusion.

Uncle John is among the most musical drummers I've heard. And in contrast, there ain't
that many. Like S.G. John has a way of morphing his ability to the music, becoming part
of the musical signature rather than putting "HIS" signature on it. Few, VERY few can do
this.

I think of the drums as an African thing and strings/horns as a European thing? Somehow they met, and then Metallica appeared, but unless you're a lucky superstar drummer like Lars who's making 10 grand a week, the best bet is to be as versatile as possible if you wish to be a working drummer.

My best guess about Tony Williams is he was too original and scared producers away? If all drummers had to pay him a nickle for each lick they copped from him he would have been a millionare. Buddy Rich was the king for such a very long time when big band was the only game in town...but if he were born today he'd probably be king all over again. Yes, too many variables and I am talking jazz.

kenny wrote:
Many musicians changed the face of music forever having never read a note in their life. i'm sure we can name some examples but Earl Scruggs and jimi Hendrix come to mind. What does that say about music? I'm not sure but it is something that can't always be pigeonholed into black dots.

This conversation reminds me of a time an American sitar player cited his guru in the fact that he stayed in his village and taught while Ravi Shankar was out playing internationally. Well i got a little upset with him for dissing Shankar (who obviously had done alot to bring Indian classical music to the rest of the world) but his point was made. It's honorable to keep a tradition alive and it can be honorable to take it out of it's boundaries as well. Both have their place in the grand scheme of things.

Dennis Chambers once said, "I don't read music". I take this as meaning he could read, but he doesn't need to.

So, Shankar is the George Benson/Kenny G of Sitar? Just kidding...

D. Slam wrote:
I don't think Id take a gig with Frank Sinatra, him being dead and all.

It's not too late, D. There's a show on the road where a big band and dancers back his vocal track.

http://www.comeflywithme.com/eng/index.html

I actually went and saw it. Twice.

So once again we find ourselves in this slow cooking cauldron of confusion. Perhaps its because as men we have things to get off of our chests while women still wear bras.

No man here should be wearing a bra. Rather, just appreciate what and who influenced us in our development when maturing in this most particular artform dubbed "music."

If given the opportunity, I hope each and everyone would be up to snuff. Not "stuff," but snuff. Clear those sinuses; blow that nose out and throw away the mucus. And don't put tobacco in the mouth and spit it out. That's a freakin' nasty habit worse than smoking. Get my point?

Grit the teeth on meat and not grinding on what everyone here should know is music we all enjoy. Music comes to us in ways that has meaning to our lives. I come to music in various ways that might contribute to another's appreciation.

Of course, I had to hear it first to even participate. But then the "BEAT GOES ON!"

You got me confused Suss...??

That's about par, D.L.