Royster

Stop Dancing Don - no you didn't use those exact words but your implications are very clear. You talk about how would he play along with sax lines on Girl from Ipanema which is a much simpler tune than the stuff he usually plays.

You say you wish these guys would play something other than blowing chops all the time - this "implies" that they can't . At least it does to me. In order for them to be playing something else, then someone has to hire them to play whatever type of music is required. Maybe they've been asked and turned it down. I don't know.

I'm gonna look at the clips rare posted and see what they look like.

royster and lang - both supremely excellent drummers in my book, whatever they're playing.


Peace, TED

Tony's chops are pretty good but those girls in the bikinis have alot of good things going for them.

Cmon, Ted, I've been posting on the Billy forum since 1999. When have you known
me to ever dance around about anything that I had to say? I'm not implying anything
and I'm certainly not saying what anyone can or cannot do. I'm saying that the team
is being deemed championship caliber based on one win.

Like me, all you've ever heard Tony do is blow chops, and very well I will add. But from
this one relatively small facet, he's recognized as an excellent drummer. Now my question
is, is that excellence based on what he does as a player overall or only from within the limited,
single capacity from which you've heard him?

I really don't care if what he does is simple or not. After all, what is simple anyway? Holding
a straight 2&4 may not be so simple for some. So it's not so much about actually playing "simple",
or even playing Girl from Ipanema, but more about being a part that puts focus on the music
as a whole rather than turning heads with a bunch of monster chops. For me, excellent, well
rounded drumming is far deeper than that, in any style.

So, Ted, with all due respect, and I do respect you immensely, please don't tell me what my
implications are. I know what I said and I know what I meant.

Because you and racman's 2 cent rants get old. he does play music all the time and is probably one of the highest paid drummers in the world with j z
he shows his chops at these drum clinics because that's what you do at drum clinics. To me when he does that he is playing music of the highest order in my book. He is excellent at many styles and as a clinician. I just get tired of whiney rants of negativity towards a fellow musician who has conquered the drumming world already at a young age. he deserves what he's accomplished. So when you rant and whine about a fellow drummer it makes you look weak sorry that's how it comes off and i'm letting you know that's how it makes you look. I don't agree with your stance towards him I find it childish that's all. And I'm letting you know how it makes me feel. i don't like prince's music at all but i totally respect what he's accomplished. I think you are fine people and musicians in your own rights i don't harbor bad feelings toward anyone if i can help it. I'm saying and i am fully guilty of this at times : when you compare musicians and project your interests on them and what you think they should do you make a mistake because there is room for as many styles of drumming as there are drummers. beyond personal taste tony is one of the top drummers on the planet and that's the fact. i think we need to have room for people like tony because he is the future of the art of soloing and improvisation and appreciate that aspect rather find fault in what he doesn't do. he is still young!! No hard feelings toward anyone on this forum sorry i get wound up sometimes when i read stuff that i find irritating.

Cool, Kenny,

I certainly respect your right to your opinions.

I'll say this just so we understand one another:

Read slowly and deliberately..... I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!
I, like you and everyone else here express my opinions and you certainly do not have to agree with
them or even like them, as that will certainly NOT change anything.

It's the same kind of thing when you voiced your opinions on that animated rockabilly drummer, Kenny.
You even went as far as to openly insult what he does with name calling. So seems to me we have a
case of the pot calling the kettle black. I'm not saying that what Tony does isn't done well. And I respect
his ability as I know the effort it takes to play on that technical/physical level. For me, he falls short musically
speaking based on what I've heard thus far, and if me saying that is childish in your view then so be it...
My opinion stands.

I'll tell you what though, bruh, that's a lot of wasted energy on your part. If my "rants" irritate
you that much, I would suggest you take your own advice and not read them. I'd hate for you
to continue to lose sleep and be irritated over what I have to say. You think Tony's an excellent
drummer. And you know what, you may be right. I personally have not heard enough from him to
make that conclusion. So to each his own.... And I can live with that without any hard feelings or
irritation.

So in a nutshell, Kenny, feel and think what you want. It's what I and everyone else here will do
and that's what this forum is all about, isn't it? I only ask that you not hurt yourself.

Well like I said some will love Tony and some won't. Some people like me think that Tony is just what the doctor ordered, all that fast chop playing excites me and it always has. And guess who started it with me ? It was Billy Cobham, when he was with Mahavishnu. I was so turned on by his fast precise and powerful playing until I almost went bunkers. When I saw Billy that night on In Concert back around 1971 or 72 I was never the same. And for me it has been the same with Tony Royster. Ted made a valid point when he said that many considered Billy's playing at one time in his younger years to be over the top. I remember Billy saying on his old forum that his approach to his playing now that he is older has changed. I don't know if Tony will slow down anytime soon, but for me and thousands of others we like him just the way he is. But Don is right this is the place to come and discuss this stuff, and please don't get to angry with each other. I know that sometime tempers will flare, I am not exempt from that myself. But above all love each other.

Wow! it's as if anyone said they had anything against fast chops.... I didn't and I don't.
Before you begin comparing Tony to Billy you might want to look at their resumes, Spanky.

Billy has covered the FULL spectrum of drumming. He began at the age of 3. That gives
him 62 years of earning himself the drumming legend status that he so very much deserves...
and he still has not gotten his just deserts. The man has countless recordings and performances
to his right, not to mention all the too many to name musical legends that he's recorded and
performed with.

A couple of youtube clips of Tony Royster blowing chops with a group of unknown gospel kids
and suddenly he's a world class player that is among the top 5 to 20 players in all the world...

Nope, I ain't feelin it.

Somehow, it keeps getting back to Tony's chops as if I have something against him playing the
way he does.... I'll try and make this clear one last time. His chops are NOT the issue. For me
it's what he DOESN'T do. He doesn't ever play without them. All roads lead to Tony. That's all
I've ever seen, that's all I've ever heard. If anyone has anything different to show me as I've
already asked, where the music is the focal point and not the drums. I'll be happy to check it out....
And I don't mean clips of him smashing his kit through the stage floor with Jay Z.

Again, I'm still waiting.

Well Don all I did was try to explain it the best way that I could, and sometimes I might not do a good job of it. I was really trying to make a point more so than comparing Tony to Billy, and as for the chops all I did was give my view. And that point was that some on this board thinks that Tony over chops. But I don't, and many others feel the same way, and some don't. That was all I was trying to say really. And lastly many people did feel as though Billy's playing was over the top, when he was with Mahavishnu, and the same thing is being said about Tony. Those were all the points that I was trying to make.

Okay, let me try again:

LIKES:

1. I DO NOT think Tony's chops are over the top and I never said that they were.

2. When I see these clips of Tony, I think what he does is extraordinary.

3. What he does, he executes with confidence, strength, amazing technique, style,
precision and amazing physical ability.

DISLIKES:

1. There are none... I DO NOT dislike anything this amazing youngster does.
I would just like to hear him do something in a more overall, musically
involved setting that doesn't involve burning down the house with killer
drum chops and solos through out the tune.

And trust me they are killer, I'm not saying that as an undercover insult. But
that is no basis to place him among the best players in the world, and call him
world class unless this a contest of chops, in which case you may be onto
something.

Concerning the M.O. With the exception of Rick Laird, They ALL played out. So in
my estimation, Billy did not overplay within that context. But again overplaying
was never my beef with Tony, and if I've ever used that term in referring to him.
It was a mistake on my part.

I hope I've finally made things clear, or at least clearer as to where I stand.

Good feedback Don.

Thanks Spanky, Just want to be clear is all...

Below is a thread link to a youtube clip I posted sometime ago.
It was about a guy who has really fast feet and plays them
very cleanly. I put it up for technical purposes alone, to simply
show the player's level of technical prowess at what he does.
I'm re-posting this here for you, Kenny to read your own
replies to the post.

After reading them you may want to rethink your position on
what comments are negative, whiny, childish, irritating, rants
that make others (me specifically) look weak. Or maybe just
think a bit more before posting so as you don't wind up chewing
on your toes in the future.

Also, it's funny how the subject of musicality found its way into
your replies.... Hmmm, Where have I read that one before?

Peace.

https://bcwtj.forumotion.com/t615-normally-not-into-this-but

Instead of butting heads and getting into pissing matches we need to realize that peoples points of view differ from one another.
It's all subjective to the listener.
Drummers come in all different shapes and flavors. Some need to prove that they have chops up the a** in order to gain some sort of recognition in the drumming community, or to prove something to themselves.
Take it with a grain of salt.
The count is almost endless of drummers blowing their chops all over youtube and after awhile it gets redundant, to me at least.
Somehow the mentality of overplaying has seemed to have taken over what the responsibility of a drummer is. The glue that holds it all together.
Having chops galore is nice when they are applied to the right scenario and in the right context. I'm sure we've all been guilty of overplaying, even Boomer has admitted that in his younger years.
Having the discipline to restrain from blowing your load all at once is the tell tale signs of a mature drummer who has been around for awhile and who knows when to show them.
I've got chops, Don's got chops and so does Kenny and Spanky and probably all of the rest of the drummers who frequent this forum.
OK..... I'm impressed. Now show me what you can do with less.
Alot of drummers have lost contact of what the definition of a drummer is within the context of playing with other musicians.
Instead they think it's all about ME!!!!

As Spanky said to me... "Good feedback", Woody.

A lot of drummers have lost contact of what the definition of a drummer is within the context of playing with other musicians.
Instead they think it's all about ME!!!!

Well said.

A drummer friend of mine once said, "the world can always use more "high end" drummers." I loved that statement. there are plenty of mustang sally drummers out there. To me what tony R does is purely musical. he takes the rudiments he has trained on and applies them as an improvisational soloist. In the context he is in he is doing it right. I don't like when you say displaying chops out the ass or whatever. sure some do. But for me Tony r is tearing up great solos that are musically appropriate in the context of a drum clinic. In fact i anticipate him taking those "chops" or rudimental knowledge and taking it further over the top. His playing is immaculate. I'm sure people said to Boomer as they did to Jimi and people of that caliber to tone it down. But some people are like super novas as they just shine brighter than those around them and it's just not right for them to dumb themselves down for the masses. The mustang sally guys are a dime a dozen folks we need guys like tony royster jr. there are many functions of a drummer not just the slave mentality of timekeeper. There is plenty of room for individuality. believe me i am plenty critical and opinionated as you know from my slanderous posts about heavy metal which i find retarded and of the devil. But what tony does serves a higher good as i see it.

I don't think anybody is questioning Tony's ability to play, Kenny. I think you're missing the point.
It's just common place nowadays for drummers of this caliber to just blow chops ALL the time and after awhile it gets redundant.
You're right, this is what people want to hear when they go to clinics. They want to see their star shine. But aside from doing drum clinics I don't see that he would fit into anything else besides the Tony Royster show. That it's all about Tony and that he's a one man show. I'm not familiar with his work with Jay-Z as that type of music doesn't interest me. THat clip of him playing with the girls in the bikinis could be any drummer playing that as his playing is somewhat more subdued.
The part, for me at least, that gets boring when you just blow as loud and fast as you can and don't leave yourself anywhere to go.
I'm sure as time goes by that Tony will mature in his playing and be a better musician for it. At least we can hope that. Instead of the same old chopfest mentality that so many young drummers, nowadays, have been subject to by the media and drum clinics.

Yup, that's me, one of the mustang sally drummers ! LOL






Peace, TED

As long as they keep asking for it I'll keep playing it, Ted.....LOL!!!
I guess I fall into that category, too.

I remember once in a drum magazine they had two illustration drawings right next to each other.
The first one showed the first drummer ripping up the kit. The artist had drawn all these notes
above the players head to demonstrate the intricacy of his execution. Next to the drummer stood
a music producer watching and listening to him play and saying: "You're incredible!"

The next illustration showed a different drummer playing much more subdued, very few notes
over his head The same producer standing there watching, listening and saying: "You're hired".

So my question is what is a "higher end drummer?" And where is it written that a drummer that plays
less, is just that,,, Less?. The best players are the ones that can play the GIG, not the ones that have
the most chops.... Pure and simple.

I don't care what Tony does.... But calling him world class and an all around great player based on a
couple of youtube clips of him unleashing a barrage of drum chops is somewhat premature.

And I couldn't care less what you think of any drummer or style of music they play, Kenny. It is totally
within your prerogative to feel the way you do and express those feelings. My point is no one even came
close to hurling the insults you did with these players that you don't appreciate. So taking that into
consideration you may want to curb your judgmental accusations of others here who express their own
feelings and opinions. If you reside in a glass house then don't throw stones. That's my point with this.

I too appreciate Tony's ability for what it is. But he hasn't even begun (based on what I have heard to date)
to touch on the available musical or even drumming spectrum.... Yes, Tony plays great what I've heard him play...
I haven't heard enough to make a conclusion beyond that... But maybe in your infinite drumming wisdom, you can,
and obviously have done so.

D. Slam wrote:

So my question is what is a "higher end drummer?" And where is it written that a drummer that plays
less, is just that,,, Less?. The best players are the ones that can play the GIG, not the ones that have
the most chops.... Pure and simple.

I don't care what Tony does.... But calling him world class and an all around great player based on a
couple of youtube clips of him unleashing a barrage of drum chops is somewhat premature.
to touch on the available musical or even drumming spectrum.... Yes, Tony plays great what I've heard him play...
I haven't heard enough to make a conclusion beyond that..

High end as in melodic player. Soloist. The higher end of the musical spectrum besides playing the bottom all the time. there are different types of music as we all know. Some call for more high end from the drummer (melodic soloing). Some call for a mustang sally drummer. With enough of the proper experience the high end drummer will be able to restrain himself enough to play mustang sally when need be but the low end 4/4, 4 on the floor guy is not going to fit in the melodic scapes played by progressive jazzrock groups. he will not have the chops to pull that off. he will only have his mustang sally mentality to draw on. What gig are we talking about here anyway? is all drumming an audition for someone else's band. I didn't think so. Tony royster doesn't need to play no mustang sally no mo.

It's funny tonite i was training my sub for a balkan gig I'll be out of town for. It was his audition for us. A highly skilled classical and jazz student, on the very first song he came ready to play his own highly syncopated 9/8 version of the rhythm of our traditional bulgarian song. The singer immediately stopped the music. his syncopations did not fit with the song at hand. he even said I'm "stealing the folkloric and doing my own thing with it" like he was offering us something fresh and funky to perk up the music. i told him let that be a lesson to you. You can't steal from the traditional until you actually know it. i said when you start your own band you can play like that all you want. we showed him what was needed and the song resumed much happier. I couldn't believe his immaturity on his debut with us. he wasn't even familiar with the music but i did think he had a cool idea just the wrong time and place. he didn't understand he needed to learn how to play the traditional grooves for the singer to be comfortable. I think all his academic training did leave a gap in his knowledge or was he just a talented yet cocky young kid. maybe a little of both. he hadn't really put the time into learning how to hold these odd time signatures steady in the groove but he had some wild stuff aLL LINED UP he wanted to do. It's cool, a lesson learned for all involved.

Some call for a mustang sally drummer. With enough of the proper experience the high end drummer will be able to restrain himself enough to play mustang sally when need be but the low end 4/4, 4 on the floor guy is not going to fit in the melodic scapes played by progressive jazzrock groups. he will not have the chops to pull that off. he will only have his mustang sally mentality to draw on.

Darn it! Somebody forgot to tell Steve Gadd that he hasn't the the chops to pull
off jazz-rock because of his Simon and Garfunkel mentality.... laughable, ain't it?

Tony royster doesn't need to play no mustang sally no mo.

Absolutely, He's playing "higher end" Jay Z. material... Oh wait, he's just hitting
a hell of a lot harder...

Don't make the mistake of simplifying four on the floor too much, Kenny.
That's like someone playing a "funk beat" without it being funky.
Just because one can play the mechanics of a "four on the floor" DOES NOT
mean that he or she can capture the essence of the song through the applied
application.

You could talk to master groover, four on the floor, John Bonham himself about that
if he were still around.

All I've ever heard Buddy Rich play is big band and swing, so I guess that makes him
less than the world class drummer he's known for since he specializes rather than
generalizes in various styles and genres of music? Because with all of his extraordinary
drumming skills, it's very likely he did not have what it took to pull off a tune like Mustang
Sally with a genuine R&B feel.

Thus we're right back at square one.... What is a "high end drummer"? I can tell you what
it is to me. It's a player who can musically get the job done in such a way that gets the
intended point across, and do it in any given style, be it multiple styles or just one.

High end, i tried to explain it. i thought i did it pretty well. If you need to hijack the terminology to suit yourself okay. Buddy was a high end drummer because he was the leader and dictated where the music was going. He took his skills and made it interesting for himself as a soloist. Not some chump that just takes any gig he can get playing boring music and never being original or creative musically. High end as in creative minded, not the amount of money kind of high end. If music is just getting a job done to you then it's just a job. Punch in punch out good job! play the beats required get your pay and never do anything creative or outside the box. That's all folks!

You know, Kenny you have knack for twisting what was said to suit your own personal, and twisted agenda.

This is what I said: "It's a player who can musically get the job done in such a way that gets the
intended point across." I don't care if that's Mustang Sally or West side story.

He took his skills and made it interesting for himself as a soloist. Not some chump that just takes any gig he can get playing boring music and never being original or creative musically.

You also have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth....
Dude, you play surfer music.... And the ethnic material I heard
you do? Well, let's just say that I understand what you mean by
"low end".... So let's not even go there.

In any case, I've wasted enough time talking in circles with someone
I can play circles around in my sleep with half the effort and hassle,
and who's skull is as thick as Hoover dam.... I be done!
Try not to get sand in your pedal bearings.

C ya!

That was mighty christian of you Don.

IN YOUR SLEEP AS IN YOUR DREAMS PERHAPS.

The truth always is.

mUSTANG SALLY YEAH tHOUGHT YOU WERE DONE. I'm flyin to do a gig in baltimore this weekend while you play Lionel Ritchie covers. I just got back from playing with Senegalese drummers. you'd be cowering in the corner. Oops gotta go to another rehearsal. Enjoy yourself