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Van Halen & Boomer

+6
Asaph
rarebit
drumman
D. Slam
Colin
Igor
10 posters

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1Van Halen & Boomer Empty Van Halen & Boomer Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:35 pm

drumman



Van Halen started their 2012 Tour a few days ago, check out the photo.
Alex Van Halen's kit looks like Boomers triple bass kit from 1979!

Van Halen & Boomer Vanhal11

2Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:59 pm

Igor

Igor

...only that Alex has 4 bass drums :-)

3Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:15 am

Colin

Colin

drumman wrote:Van Halen started their 2012 Tour a few days ago, check out the photo.
Alex Van Halen's kit looks like Boomers triple bass kit from 1979!

Van Halen & Boomer Vanhal11


No Alex has his kit nothing like Bills early kits.


Alex is a Outstanding Drummer
I would love to see Bill as guest on Timbales on a track

Alex and Bill - Both Hard Workers



___________________________________________________

Outtasight
Colin

4Van Halen & Boomer Empty Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:59 am

drumman



I didn't say it looked exactly like it, but where do you think he got the idea from????
Alex has even stated in interviews that he started experimenting with bass drums attached
together and multiple bass drums because of Boomer.

Notice the Octobans to his left? Where do you think that came from??
Come on guys, use your imagination!!

5Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:36 am

Asaph

Asaph

Billy used Octobans? I didn't know that. I can't recall ever hearing any on his recordings.

Now, Simon Philips, who Stanley once stated sounds like a young Billy, has used Octobans for decades.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

6Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:25 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

Asaph wrote:Billy used Octobans? I didn't know that. I can't recall ever hearing any on his recordings.

Now, Simon Philips, who Stanley once stated sounds like a young Billy, has used Octobans for decades.


Wow, Asaph,

Sometimes I get the impression that you've been
sleeping under a rock. Smile Do you have Billy's album
"Magic" and or "Simplicity of expression-Depth of
thought"?

He uses the Octobans quite liberally on these two
projects. It was Billy that put these on the map
just as it was he who did the same with the inverted
china cymbal.... No, I am NOT saying he was the first
to use octobans or an inverted china. But it was through
Billy's application that set the standard for this, right along
with the gong drum. I still invert my china to this day.

You can hear Billy use the Octobans here: "Antares the star"
and AC/DC. I LOVE this record.





Last edited by D. Slam on Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:53 am; edited 4 times in total

7Van Halen & Boomer Empty Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:29 am

drumman



Van Halen & Boomer Billy_10

8Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:31 pm

Asaph

Asaph

Well, I confess to not ever hearing Magic or Simplicity. Forgive my ignorance of them. As far as living under a rock, I don't have all the recordings of any of the drummers who were major influences upon me.

I made my own octobans (tube drums) out of PVC back in the early 70s never knowing about Billy's use of them. Same with chinas (swish cymbals), for that matter. Zildjian had them, I saw them in old pics of jazz drummers, I tried them. I inverted them because they chewed my sticks to death. Had Flat chinas, too, which I still have in my set-ups. Hearing fusion players use them certainly added to my further investigation of various models and all.

As far as "gong drums" perhaps Ed Cassidy, of Spirit, had as much influence of using bass drums off to the side as anybody else back then. His being concert-sized drums they were certainly impossible to miss. I don't know when Billy began using octobans. I know Tama marketed them in the latter 70s. Were they Billy's idea? I know he played Tama for quite awhile. Magic was released in '77.

Not taking anything away from Billy's influence, of course, especially being a major playing influence upon me. Guess I'll have to add Magic and Simplicity (among others) to the new BC CDs I recently purchased.

Billy has tried all kinds of things in his set-ups. Just do a Billy Cobham search, click on images and easily see much of it. North drums were mentioned on the forum recently. North drums went under, as did Fibes. I'm not sure giving any drummer influence on the use of any kind of instrument can ever really fit drumming history. Perhaps recent info about Gene Krupa, Slingerland and Zildjian is the actual beginning and end of that influence upon instrument history. Probably other examples do exist that I'm not aware of. Certainly hardware innovation has experienced tremendous changes because of various drummers brainstorming with various companies.

I do apologize to Billy if he put Swishes and tube drums on the national/world-wide map.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

9Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:40 pm

Asaph

Asaph

I must say that is a unique pic of Billy. I cannot ever say I have seen a pic of octobans in any pic I've ever seen of Billy's set-ups. Of course, it was 35 years ago, too. If I saw any I don't remember it. Check out the tripod legs on those Tama stands. Cool. I have 35 year old Tama telescoping boom stands and the legs are regular double braced.

Both the selections above I have heard, especially Anteres. Interesting. The Octobans are obvious. I have recently purchased a couple dvds of Billy's concerts on which Anteres is played on one. No octobans, though.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

10Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:49 pm

rarebit



Random Stuff-

Louie Bellson popularized double bass drums, but he gives prior credit to another drummer in one of his videos.

Alex Van Halen plays really long drumsticks.

11Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:04 pm

Asaph

Asaph

Ah. The double bass discussion. Was it Louis, or was it Sam Woodyard? OR was it really Moon or Baker who truly put double bass on the map for aspiring drummers?

Good point, though, rarebit.

Some say Ringo put the entire Ludwig drum company on the map. That's not the same thing, though.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

12Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:39 pm

Woody

Woody

I'm pretty sure that Ted bought some of Billys octobans.
A lot of drummers started using them after hearing Billy play them.
Stewart Copeland of the Police comes to mind.

https://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/robertwoodbury

13Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Tue Mar 06, 2012 4:57 pm

Suss

Suss

Once again (in my opinion), its best to tailor your equipment to your unique expressions - not because we "see" someone else playing a particular instrument.

What comes to mind for me, is that any equipment will never make up for the lack of ability behind the instrument/tool.

Play your heart... not the equipment.

Listeners (including yourself) will know the difference right away.

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

14Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:00 pm

boomer



AMEN TO THAT! cheers

15Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:10 am

Asaph

Asaph

Too bad industry hype didn't follow such a philosophy. What is the percentage of ads in drum magazines which display known or even lesser known players, or even unknown players as the underlying reason drummers should purchase merchandise? THIS person plays this, therefore THIS product is worthy of your attention. Gear sluts jump from one company to another to get their faces in print and keep their name out there. I don't know if its the same with guitar companies and keyboards, etc., but in drum mags it's ridiculous.

Kids, young people, will always emulate their heroes. It's where their minds are at functionally. There is certainly nothing wrong with any musician using something few others do and opening up ground of exposure to others. If every drummer in the world used octobans and Billy is the one who exposed them to the widest audience, drummers are happy, Tama is happy ... so be it.

At some point adults have to find their own voice at their instrument and develop their own place.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

16Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:42 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

Kids, young people, will always emulate their heroes. It's where their minds are at functionally.
At some point adults have to find their own voice at their instrument and develop their own place.

Yep, and these ads are always targeted to young people.
The good thing about paying for my own equipment is I'm
obligated to no one. I have the luxury of being totally
honest and objective about what I purchase and play, and
not because I'm getting it for free. Don't get me wrong, I'm
sure having an endorsement deal is nice. But like anything,
to gain one thing is to lose another. Of course all the drum
companies have the best product out there. This is some
stiff competition and they have to market the way they do.

They spend LOTS of money and equipment on these endorsement
deals and they know that they have to get the big names on their
card to sell these kits to these youngsters. Also the general line of
thinking is that if you want to sound like your heros you have to use
what they use. Some have even gone as far as setting up the way
those they idolize do. Not too long ago they sold a Neil Pert replica
kit at the local Guitar Center here in town.... $20,000.00 I mean
really?! These marketing anylists aren't stupid. They know exactly
who to target with this stuff.

Unfortunately, it's a necessray evil if these companies are to stay in
business at the level that they are. And it's the young and inexperienced
that are the one's in their crosshairs.

17Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:26 pm

Asaph

Asaph

Sheesh, what kid could have bought that Peart replica set?

If I were ever in a position to endorse something, I wouldn't. I have cymbals from five companies, and wouldn't ever go with one. Maybe UFIP if I did, but I'd rather be free.

Mike Van Dyk, from Drumnetics, has shared with me a number of stories of guys who would love to use his pedal but they are under contract with the big companies, and one even told him he shouldn't be seen at his booth at NAMM. Talk about indentured servitude.

I make my own drums, and have for 20 years now, and would never look back to the manufacturers, even if offered something. Of course, when you are at that level it's convenient to have new sets waiting at clinics, and new gear for tours, etc. Still, all of that is all being passed on to the average Joe Consumer out there. But nothing is free. Somebody is paying for it, one way or another. Maybe companies can write some stuff off in their taxes.

I saw an interview with Roy Burns recently. He talked a little about endorsements and all the people that ask for free stuff and they'll play it up big for Aquarian. He tells them something like, Show me the CDs and the tours, then will talk.

Promises, promises. Mike has been burned badly giving some units away to big promises. Someone recently told me the story behind Tommy Lee switching back to Pearl from DW. Made me sick. Especially considering he could buy all the sets he wants and not have it mess with his bank account at all. What must kids think to see these people shuffling back and forth between manufacturers?

I remember a Phil Collins ad for Gretsch. In it he mentioned when he had the opportunity to play Gretsch he jumped at the chance. What??? Like Collins could not have played Gretsch for decades before that? He needed an invitation from Gretsch to do so? It's all jive and hype, and though it may seem manufacturers have to go down that road, I question if they truly have to. Perhaps they do in such a jaded, plastic world. Very sad.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

18Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:30 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

Well, Asaph, I find it a bit dificult to look at it
as negatively as you do. Don't get me wrong
much of what you say is correct but it's business,
man. These guys are fighting just to stay even
one step above the other and they pull out all the
stops. It's a competition for business.

Most of these drum companies are too big already to
do what Noble & Cooley or Brady does, specialize
in high end drums and wait for customers to call
them. They don't care to compete in that kind of
market and they stay small. Their product goes
to an elite few, usually those who can afford their
standard of craftsmanship. And the price reflects
that craftsmanship and NOT the name badge on
the shell.

I think what Phil Colins meant was he's been waiting
for the chance to play Gretcsh drums without having
to pay for them Wink

I Know nothing about building drums but from my
playing experiences there are two companies that
I really like: Tama and ddrum. Whatever it is they
do, I really like the resonance and tone these makers
get from their shells. Over the years, I've come to
know what I like. And like I said already, I can approach
that from a totally honest and objective platform.

I paid $700.00 for my 6pc Tama Starclassic Birch kit and
$800.00 for my ddrum Dominion 6pc maple set and they
both sound as good as anything I've ever heard at any
price. And I've heard and have played a LOT of drifferent
drums from more than a few different companies.

19Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:11 am

Asaph

Asaph

Don, after making drums, and renovating manufactured drums for more than 20 years I am committed to the simple notion and convicted by observation that drums are cylinders with plastic membranes on them. Bearing edges, head choices, tuning, mounting - any cylinder and pair of membranes can be made to sound good if done right - ANY cylinder and pair of membranes.

I understand business. Hype is a form of lying. I detest lying, especially to make money. As you say, much of the hype is meant for the youth. Lying to kids to make money and stay in business is wrong.

If Pearl, if Tama, if any company needs endorsers to sell their merchandise, so be it. But to make the claims they do in their ads about sound and all they do to achieve these *superior* sounds is BS.

Drums began as cylinders of solid wood, then came plies of mahogany, or maple/poplar plies, or birch, etc. Then everything was total maple. Then it was thicker shells, then paper thin shells, then special bearing edges, then the kind of finishes put on, then back to that "vintage sound," then exotic veneer plies, then the solid makers came back in, then ...

Balogna. It's all marketing. It's a bloody cylinder with two plastic membranes on it. Something like tube drums are different because of shape and size. I once made some out of Sona tubes - paper, with Rosewood veneer put on them. They sounded just fine and freaked people out when they learned what they were.

You play Pacific. If there is an intrinsic and easily heard and defined difference between a 12" DW tom and 12" Pacific tom, same heads, same tension, same bearing edges, etc., I'd like to hear it for myself. Same goes with all the Pearl lines. Nuances, at best.

Like I said, I have Keller shells in my set. I also have Maple and Birch composite shells in the same set. No one can tell the difference. I can not even tell and I sit behind the set.

If the companies want to raise banners for the hardware, their finishes, their attention to details, fine, but sound? Forget it, especially at the expense of kids.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

20Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:36 am

Suss

Suss

From my personal passed experience, I'm not on the proverbial "scene" today to get an keep an endorsement. Yet I love music and tailor my playing (which I still do) to what is required. For me, it's a matter of taste and the various colors demanded by the music and not what we want to bring to it.

For me, the most sensitive instrument in the kit is cymbal... I'd never by a pang and think it was a "ride." Yet that's just me... since at times riding that pang does add a different drive and color.

Oh well... (!).

http://www.linkedin.com/in/johnsussewell  http://www.facebook.co

21Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:51 am

D. Slam

D. Slam

Coming from one who doesn't build drums
I cannot debate with you, Asaph. But I will
say that it's only reasonable to me that shells
that are manufactured with diverse woods,
certain techniques and applications can be
manipulated soundwise.

I have birch and maple drums. And in every
instance my birch kits have more attack with a
higher end snap while the maples shells have
less attack and are noticeably rounder and
warmer sounding. I buy my drums based on
certain characteristics that I look for and this
factor has ALWAYS been consistant with me
between these two woods. Now be it bearing
edges, hoops, heads or whatever, this has
always worked for me. My birch shells have
ALWAYS had noticeably more bite and attack
than my maple shells. Understand that I have
8 complete drumsets. I'm not saying that to
brag but only to stress the point that I've learned
a little something about using different woods.
And it only seems natural to me that different
woods, some more or less dense than others
harder, softer, etc. are naturally going to have
different sound characteristics. And then, depending
how a particular shell is processed is only going to
further manipulate the sound. To me, that just
makes common sense, Asaph. Again, I'm not a
drum maker, I'm a player. But I'm finding it difficult
to fathom that what you state is the limit to getting
a good sound out of a drum. Suspect

Now as far as my ear goes, I can't say what justifies
a $10,000 kit over one that costs $1000.00 but there
are different sound characteristics between different
woods and processes. It just makes natural sense.

But what do I know. Rolling Eyes

22Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:36 pm

Asaph

Asaph

"But I'm finding it difficult to fathom that what you state is the limit to getting a good sound out of a drum."

Define "good." Good to me is resonance and sustain.

Like you've said, why buy expensive drums and then put all kinds of muting on the heads? Some guys like slappy sounds. Personal preference there, but all things being equal - bearing edges, heads, tensions I'd be curious to know if someone holding an 8x12 birch tom, a maple tom, and a composite ply tom, exotic wood ply tom, solid shell, etc., even other materials for that matter, and struck them once while you stood ten feet away, blindfolded, if you could tell the woods they were striking.

Aside from my own experience, going to youtube and listening to dozens of Memphis Drum Shop vids and other drum shop vids of all these different drum sets and plys and materials, and listening to them - they're drums. We talk about attack and tones and all, but I cannot hear any major differences in any of those videos wearing my ear phones. Other than Craviotto drums, which to my ears sound awful. They sound different, alright. I wouldn't spend a nickle for them. I cannot imagine what all the fuss is about being on a waiting list for Craviotto drums. If guys like that sound, that ... shrill harmonic after-tone, so be it. I always wonder if they are tuned correctly.

Anyway, like about everything else we discuss here, much boils down to personal preference. But in a band setting, I'd like any drummer to tell what woods are being played without seeing company name tags.

Hype, hype, hype.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

23Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:59 pm

D. Slam

D. Slam

I'd be curious to know if someone holding an 8x12 birch tom, a maple tom, and a composite ply tom, exotic wood ply tom, solid shell, etc., even other materials for that matter, and struck them once while you stood ten feet away, blindfolded, if you could tell the woods they were striking.

Asaph, What I'm saying is all the variables being the same:
except for the wood type.... Size, plys, heads, etc. all being
the same you're going to hear differences in sound character
simply because the wood is different.

Now if you took a birch shell and a maple shell of equal size with
the same number of plys, ply thickness, same heads, hoops, whatever
variable you could make the same outside of the wood type. Then I
could probably tell you what shell is maple and what shell was birch
as I understand the different character between those two wood types
as drum shells.

I agree that you could make almost any drum sound good.
But to say that the wood types don't play a major factor in
sound just doesn't hold water for me. I do need to correct
myself. I didn't mean to enphasize the term "good" as much
as I meant to express sound character. I personally feel and
would even go as far to say KNOW that it's more to this than
just being a wooden cylinder. One thing I forgot to ask you
was what experience do you have with building a shell from
the tree?

24Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:40 pm

Asaph

Asaph

There's a guy that does that, actually. I forget his web site. All shells are concentrically cut from one log. I've never heard what his drums sound like. He priced out a set of shells for me a few years ago. Six grand. Yikes. That was for a large set, but still. By the time lugs and everything else go into it I'd have a new car on my hands.

Again, I have mixed shells in my own set-up. Can't tell any differences.

I have seen info about birch being harder than maple, therefore it produces more attack. First of all, birch is not harder than maple. Thin plies of anything are not hard at all. The glue between plies holding them together ends up being much harder than the wood. Attack is created by bearing edges, not the wood. The more wood touching the drum head, the more attack the drum will produce. The thicker the heads the more the attack. They say birch produces more low end punch. Maybe. The reason would be birch is softer than maple. But not by much on the hardness scale, and like I said, thin plies of anything are not hard, not ebony, not Ipe, plies are too thin to be hard. They are very fragile and fairly soft.

Ludwig believed the only thing that matters is the inner ply and I agree. By the time all the metal is attached to the shell it's been killed. The thump test is meaningless on a shell with all that metal squeezed to it. Especially is that the case with thin shells. So the only surface actually being used for sound reflection between the heads is the inner ply. Vibrations making it through that ply die when they hit the glue, for all intents and purposes. Companies like to say their shells are almost non ply by virtue of manufacturing techniques. Heat, pressure, etc. Nonsense. Plywood is plywood. It can not sound as bright as solid woods.

I have snare drums I've made, stave drums. 1" thick maple. Throw the snares off, loosen the heads, sounds like a tom. Nothing special, just a tom. Same with other hardwoods I've used, and even pine. 3/4", 1," makes no difference. No one could tell the difference between woods with loose heads. They sound like tom toms, some may be a touch more bright or have a touch more volume.

Unless I blindfolded somebody and they did a test like I mentioned above, my own experience tells me the wood does not add much to the sound of a drum, unless compared to plastic, fiberglass, metal, etc. and I do not believe drummers would notice any real difference, especially from ten feet or more away.

If you believe you can tell a difference, check the bearing edges.

http://drumsinhisheart.weebly.com

25Van Halen & Boomer Empty Re: Van Halen & Boomer Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:06 am

kenny

kenny

I'm sure materials have something to do with the final tone of a drum. As a hand drummer I know only very dense woods are used traditionally. Nowadays they make plastic drums with plastic heeds that sound like a garbage can. So i'm sure the same would hold true for trap drum shells. But it may be much less of an issue although metal and wood snare drums certainly have a different quality so imagine birch and oak would sound markedly different.

http://www.balkanmusic.org

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