Van Halen & Boomer

AND THEN...................There is the player......................and how he/she attacks the drum in general.

Quite true. Playing off the head or through the head can make a difference in tone. Logically, the same drummer would be using the same touch on their drums.

Billy, you have probably owned more drum sets than all of us here, perhaps put together. What kind of actual, measurable, sonic and aural differences have you heard between various woods you have used?

Only the inner ply? Then why bother
removing a wrap to get more resonance
from a drum?

If you hit a drum with your hand on
the side of the shell, would you feel
vibration? The answer to that is yes!
If you can feel vibration then that tells
me that, that portion of the shell plays
a part in it's sound character.

I agree that the inner ply is the most
important but I don't believe it is the
only factor that matters in the sound
the drum produces.

This is why I asked you the question
about working with wood beginning
at the tree. Maybe if you had the
experience and knowledge of working
shell plys for yourself, you'd have a
better understanding of what goes into
generating sound character from a given
drum. In anycase it all sounds like theory
to me. Myself not having the experience
of building a drum, I'm approaching it more
from a position of logic. And it's only logical
to me that different woods will produce
different sound characters. And my own
ears and experience have shown me this.

So again, we differ..... That's okay.

Having put veneers and wrap on shells I can attest to muting characteristics. Plastic will obviously mute a shell some. It's plastic. It has no tone. But placing twelve lugs on a tom shell mutes it far more. The reason wraps matter little to overall sound characteristics of a drum is precisely because it's on the outside of the shell.

Just do a simple test. Balance a shell on a finger and thump it. You'll hear the tone. Now just clamp your thumb and forefinger on the shell and thump it again. Choke. Doesn't take much to mute a shell. Lugs do much more than a thumb and finger to mute a shell. The reason wrapped shells sound as good as unwrapped is simply because the drum heads are what is giving the drum its sound. The shell is a reverb chamber. How much of the head contacts the shell contributes to attack, as already stated. Glue has no resonance. That mutes wood, too. So the hardness of the wood contributes to brightness of the reverb chamber, just like a wood room has more echo than a carpeted one. Sound waves bounce around. Manufacturers of plywood shells do their best to make shells as solid as possible. I make snare drums with metal liners. The harder interior surface brightens the sound a little. Also dries it out some, but if someone closes their eyes they would never know I was hitting a wood drum with a metal liner. It just sounds like a drum because the heads are what is giving the instrument it's sound. Depth of shell will mean more to drums overall sound than woods will.

One way to really hear this is listening to Dunnett's Titanium drum set. He has it set up in a very live room. When I first heard of this vid (youtube) I expected to hear something startlingly different. Not. Sounds like drums to me. Loud, but the room is loud, too. If he or the info did not tell me the drums were titanium I would not know it by listening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKvnas8Zgy8

Tell you what I'll do. I'll put together a vid playing some different drums. They are not all the same depth, but they'll all be 13" diameter. Different materials, same basic one ply heads. I'll strike each one and I'll let the mic pick up any particular differences in tonal character. There won't be much, if any distinct differences.

BTW, I have worked with wood all my life. I've made furniture as well as drums. I build houses, too. Soft woods. Hard woods. I heat my home with wood. I am not wholly ignorant of the characteristics of trees and wood.

Oh, feeling vibration in your hand from thumping a shell. Of course. I can thump a marble or granite counter top and feel vibration. If I could make shells of granite and put heads on them they would sound like drums. Be heavy as ..., well, granite, but they would sound like drums because of the drum heads. Thumping a shell is a far cry from striking a drum head. The vibration force is not even close.

Iso mounts allow a shell to vibrate as much as possible, hardware and all taken into account.

The only drum I have ever heard giving a tone when struck, fully loaded with hardware, is my 7x13 aluminum with its 3/16" shell. Otherwise all other materials used for drum shells will mute terribly when hardware is all attached. Just the nature of the beast. Tight drum heads make a drum. Woods are totally secondary to shell sound.

Put a set together with five drums (plus a snare), different wood configurations for each shell in corresponding sizes. Same heads. Tune them as you like. Play the set. I'd like to hear someone state the drums all sound different, and not like a drum set in tune with itself.

Good explanation, Asaph.
I believe what you say about the shells of acoustic drums and their tonal properties. It makes complete sense to me.
That is one of the reasons I became fascinated with electronic drums because what you say about acoustic drums can be thrown out the window with electronic kits. I've said all along it's like comparing apples to oranges comparing acoustic to electronic drums. Both drums have their pros and cons but their is a distinct difference between the sounds attained by an electronic set, compared to an acoustic set.
Ultimately, I believe, you will see a marriage of both acoustic and electronic drums as a means to having the best of both worlds.

Asaph, what is involved with putting the bearing edge on a drum? Do you do it with hand tools?

Is it possible to tune the drum head to be in harmony with the shell? Will this give harmonics or overtones? I've had some success doing this with the top and bottom heads tuned to different pitches. Now I'm wondering about shells.

"Billy, you have probably owned more drum sets than all of us here, perhaps put together. What kind of actual, measurable, sonic and aural differences have you heard between various woods you have used?"
I believe that there is a considerable difference in tonal color from one type of drum shell to another but it is not just the shell that is a factor there is the drum head, the lugs, the treatment of the baring edge and the effect that any hardware connected to the drum is going to have on it's ability to vibrate from the impact of the drum stick on the drum head surface. I have not mentioned the bonding agent that holds the wood plus together......... So, with all of that said, of course there can be a broad differential in tonal character from one drum to another when played by an individual. 'An then, there is the room and the weather and.............it continues on with many unseen or unconsidered factors as well.

BUT! When it all comes down to performance:
The Brain is what we control everything with at the drum set so one must work through any action within the mind in advance of physically going through the motions of performing on the drum set or on a drum. You really have to be familiar with the sound that the instrument will produce, within reason, before you actually play it. I am talking about a “split second” process that the player must go through so as to have some place from which to make any necessary adjustments that will ‘pop up’ as and when they happen.

The Hands: What one experiences from making contact with a single drum or any surface will affect what one does in the next few strokes until some consistency in the general sound or tonal character of the instrument becomes consistent with the musical personality of the player. How the drum is approached in the application of the stroke, that of playing into and through the drum meaning that the drum stick is firmly held in hand through each stroke– German method or, The French method where the drum stick is held from the wrist to the fingers so that the drum stick draws the sound from a drum that is tensioned or tuned for pitch in the general term in a way that could resemble stinging the playing surface as opposed to playing through it and pulling the hand back from the surface. I find the French method of playing the drums more effective for me since I am interested in the actual sound of the drum as based upon it’s dimensions and physical make up.

rarebit,

Bearing edges are done with power tools, mostly routers on tables. Some use power shapers.

As far as tuning, again, I am total skeptic about tuning in harmony with the shell because the lugs mute it so much. Perhaps with Arbiter lugless drums it was far more possible. They are long gone, of course.

Shell depth has more to do with tuning because the idea is finding the right ratio of tension for compatible vibration between the heads. The amount of air moving down and back up in the cylinder means a lot to sound of the drum. I like shallow toms because of that factor. I like my drums to really sing. My toms are all half toms. Been that way since the mid 90s from an experiment, basically, based on tapping a snare drum with a loose head, snares down, just sitting off to the side of the room. The sustain was remarkable. I went ahead and cut down all my shells to half sizes 3x6, 4x8, 5x10, 6x12, etc., all the way to a 10x20. My "floor toms" sit on modified snare stands. Actually, all my toms are mounted in snare baskets. This newest set I even cut the bass drums down to 11x22 and 12x24. The reaction of air bouncing back and forth between the heads makes the drums easier to play for me, and the sound is very melodic. Guys that like throatier sounds, louder drums, deeper tones go with deeper drums. To me, playing traditional or deeper shell depths feels like playing on pillows, and especially the waves of the sea effect rolling on deep floor toms. Eliminated with the shallow drums. I also have no vent holes in my drums so there's a lot of air movement in them.

Bearing edges really effect tuning. Every drum has a natural range because of those bearing edges. But again, some players just take the wrinkles out of the heads. That's the feel and sound they like and the bearing edges hardly matter in that case.

Billy is certainly right about factors he mentions, even the difference between how drums sound and feel outside rather than inside a building. Different things contribute to a drums sound. The sticks used, how you hold them. It all counts.

But, as I say, my own experience has shown me the woods used are less than a major factor in a drums sound. It is a factor, but I remain unconvinced it's a major one. Heads are the major factor.

I remember seeing Billy in clinic up in Maine. The Yamaha rep made a big deal about the special finish put on the drums and the difference it made in the drums tone and resonance. Maybe Billy could hear it sitting behind the set, but from 15 rows back we didn't hear anything special. They sounded like regular drums to us (my friend and I).

Hype. Just too much hype in this industry.

What is interesting about electronic drums is the perfection of the sound (depending on sound source, of course). Everything is perfectly tuned, you change tunings at the turning of a knob, you can totally remove sympathetic snare buzz (or add it in increments around the set). The draw back, for me is the mono-nature of the strike, the machine gun effect which is totally unnatural. The module/software is reproducing the same basic note over and over. Acoustic drums are not like that because no one hits the same spot on the heads every time. So the sound changes with each strike and every roll, but with edrums it is too perfect. They have a ways to go to deal with that aspect. But I have fun with my TrapKat and mods. Especially where percussion is concerned. World sounds. Chromatic sounds. It's a whole different world, really.

There are interesting sound scapes on my Roland. Definite differences between what they have electronically come up with for drum sounds based on materials (birch, maple, fiberglass, vintage, etc.). They did not use acoustic sampling. Some of it sounds real, some it of quite unreal.

Oh, feeling vibration in your hand from thumping a shell. Of course. I can thump a marble or granite counter top and feel vibration. If I could make shells of granite and put heads on them they would sound like drums. Be heavy as ..., well, granite, but they would sound like drums because of the drum heads. Thumping a shell is a far cry from striking a drum head. The vibration force is not even close.

Yeah, I know about all that... My point is only that the entire
drum plays a part in it's sound character and not just the inner
ply. Again, looking at it from a logical, common sense view, if
the inner ply was all that matters then having a wrap on a drum
would make no difference in it's tonal or resonant qualities.

You can hit the head with a stick and feel the vibration on the
outside of the shell. Thus the ENTIRE shell plays a part in the
sound it produces. If you can do this with granite, then obviously
the same rule applies.

In short and in the end for me, I'm with Billy. I believe that
the wood type plays a noticeable role in the the sound character
of the drum it becomes, regardless of who's playing it, or how it's
played. Maybe Asaph can convince him why his belief and way of
thinking is wrong...

The debate is now moot as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not sure why everything is a "debate" with everybody on this forum, rather than simple discussion of whatever. I'm not debating. I have no argument to "win." I'm just sharing my own experiences and reasoning.

To reiterate, you don't strike the drum shell, you strike the head, right? Lugs kill shell vibration related to sound and tone. The inner ply is the first and almost last resonant surface sound waves bounce around in. Premier made a great line of drums with a separated inner ply chamber. They didn't catch on but they sounded very good from things I read about them. That's why manufacturers line softer wood shells with maple or birch inner plies. Bearing edges and heads mean far more to sound spectrum than wood types or plies. Those are just scientific facts studied and researched by independent people, not bound by manufacturers hype.

If William F. Ludwig Sr. didn't know anything about drum shells, than nobody does, imho.

Just sayin'.

Where did you get the notion that "everything" is a debate with "everybody" on this forum?

Debate: "A discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints."

Just so we're clear on the term: "debate".

I don't ever recall William F. Ludwig Sr. stating that wood
types played no role in the sound character of a drum...

I'm just sayin' also.

I've seen some pro name drums with really bad bearing edges. Like somebody did them with a pocket knife. I was tempted to try to fix them, but I know just enough about bearing edges that I should probably stay away. Can I learn the technique of redoing a bearing edge on a drum? How did you learn?

I worked with wood and power tools before I began making drums so I had the experience with routers. But, if you are handy with tools doing bearing edges is not difficult. You just have to go easy and take a little bit at a time. You decide what kind of bearing edge you want and just take off thin passes at a time. A touch of hand sanding and you're done.

Old Gretsch drums had double round overs. Pretty easy to do. Depending on the thickness of your shells you can do a double 3/16" roundover in just two passes, outside and inside. Just depends on what you want.

If you want to fix worn bearing edges and sharpen them up that's easy too, as long as you're very careful.

You can just practice on scrap wood until you're confident enough to put a drum shell against the router. And that is important. You don't put the router on the shell, you place the shell up to the router on a router table of some kind.

"I don't ever recall William F. Ludwig Sr. stating that wood
types played no role in the sound character of a drum..."

Well, the very fact that old Ludwigs had a poplar core speaks to the issue if Ludwigs belief only the inner ply made a real difference to drum tone and character. When the full maple craze hit, Ludwig went all maple, too. Before that not so much.

Definition of DEBATE
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides


That is what it seems to be for some here, at times. Contentious. Sides. I get that notion from a number of things, past and present. Personally, I feel like I have been an outsider who has broken some kind of rules at times. Some are told to virtually stay quiet until they become some kind of expert, as though their own opinions are meaningless, or put down because their viewpoints are not mature enough for some.

Seeing as life is way too short I shall take my leave.

It's been informative, and interesting, and somewhat painful.

Yeah, Don comes across that way sometimes, although he'll respect you more if you stick up to your own opinion, Asaph.
I think we've all had it out with him at one time or another. I know I have and I'm not alone.
Don't let it bother you, though. Deep down inside he's nothing more than a big fluffy teddy bear...LOL!!!!
Try not to be intimidated by him. Just realize that he's entitled to his opinion, also.
Whether it agrees with yours or not.

You, know, there have been times when we've
ALL had our contentious moments here. But
here is where I see the real problem, it's when
some cannot stand to have their opinions challenged.

To me, this was a couple of people expressing their
opposing opinions in a civilized manner. I don't know
about you, Asaph but my argument had no contention
at all as it is very easy and possible to "debate" without
any of that.

It seems you choose to deem those who disagree with your
opinions as contentious.... That my friend is totally on you!

What can I say except I believe that you're doing the right
thing.... In the words of Harry S. Truman:

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."

You've been an asset.... Hate to see you go.

Asaph, no one here wants you leave.

"The written word is only true to those who believe it to be true"

I just want to make something clear
that I think might be misunderstood.
I have no argument for the points Asaph
makes regarding what makes a drum shell
work.

Truth is I agree with all of his points.
Where we part ways is what he seems
to say does NOT work. I don't know
what the level of importance or degrees
are in these different factors that make
this happen, as I'm quite sure as a drum
builder, Asaph is far more knowledgeable
about that than I am. And I would be wise
not to dispute those subjects with him. But
I know that there are more to what makes a
drum work than only those things he talks
about.

And I know that the things that he counts as
hype in the drumming industry isn't total hype.
Of course there are some marketing concepts
used that are noticeably exaggerated. But I
also know that there is some truth to those
things stated that Asaph in my view seems to
be saying has no bearing on the sound
characteristics of a wooden drum shell.

In a nutshell, that's all I've been trying to say.

This was in no way a contentious, heated, or
confrontational debate, at least not on my part.
And if you took my actions as such, Asaph then I
regret that.

It was not my intent.